Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Hello,

Can anyone provide details of the loss of the Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356 on the 08.10.1942?

Thanks
Oleg

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

5./ZG 1
Lt. Werner Damm (FF)
Uffz. August Krieger (Bf)
Bf 110 E-2
S9+TN
4356
Hit by Flak. Did not return from combat mission.
20 Kms. south of Gorjatsch-Kljutsch.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Thank John!

Kind regards,
Oleg

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Oleg - this aircraft was found some time ago.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

John

I have this one listed as a D-3 model (most likely from the Mankau/Petrick book). Since I feel it was a bit unlikely D models were rebuilt into E ones, can you possibly give me a clue how to interpret all this?

Since I assume you have the WNr details that both Mankau/Petrick used, are these numbers open for questioning?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Hello Stig,

Mankau/Petrick say Werk-Nr. 4213-4380 = 168 Bf 110 D-3 built by Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH in Bremen.

In the Gen.Qu. loss report from 19 October 1942 is listed Bf 110 F (S9+TN) 4359. In the supplement (Ergänzung) from 29 October 1942 h) is noted:
Ändere Werk-Nr. 4359 in 4356 (Bf 110 F).

Regards
Leo

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Thanks Leo

Now you have made me even more confused...
Three different 110 versions? :confused:

What was it in real life??

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Hello Stig,

let us wait for an answer to your post #5.

Regards
Leo

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

The information in my earlier post is the entry I gave in my book, Sting of the Luftwaffe.

That information was drawn from two sources: the Nam Ver & the Gen.Qu.

In Petrick/Mankau, 4356 is in the block 4213 to 4380 which was allocated to the 'D-3' series, and were built between September 1940 and March 1941 by FW.

4381 to 4400 (E series) were also built by FW in April 1941.

The D-3 batch mentioned above was the last D-3 batch to be built. The 'E' series was already on the production lines in August 1940, and so D-3 production would have been running parallel with 'E' series production in the FW factory.

So, where do the last 3 paragraphs take us? They take us to a scenario not uncommon for the Bf 110 - that of a cross-over during production resulting in the finished aircraft not having the original designation given by the RLM. The following is an example of what happened during the 'C' series production.
W. Nr. Sub-variant during production Sub-variant from loss list Remarks
2065 C-2 C-4 3M+EK air collision during combat 3/9/40
2095 C-2 C-4 2N+GM damaged in combat 2/9/40
2104 C-2 C-4 2N+KP shot down 4/9/40
2116 C-2 C-4 3M+AA shot down 4/9/40
2123 C-2 C-4 3M+CH shot down 25/8/40
2130 C-2 C-4 3U+JR damaged in combat 25/9/40
2133 C-2 C-4 3M+HL air collision during combat 3/9/40
2137 C-2 C-4 2N+FM shot down 9/9/40
2145 C-2 C-4 3U+CA abandoned over Channel 6/9/40
2146 C-2 C-4 3M+BK shot down 3/9/40 (duplicate W. Nr)
2146 C-2 C-4 U8+CL shot down 6/9/40 (duplicate W. Nr.)
3004 C-2 C-4 2./NJG 1 damaged in combat 16/11/40
3028 C-2 C-4 U8+HH shot down 26/9/40
3045 C-2 C-4 3U+BN damaged in combat 2/9/40
3094 C-2 C-4 3U+AR shot down 26/9/40
3098 C-2 C-4 III./ZG 26 damaged in combat 27/9/40
3101 C-2 C-4 2N+CN shot down 4/9/40
3102 C-2 C-4 U8+BB shot down 18/8/40
3113 C-2 C-4 3M+EL shot down 3/9/40
3117 C-2 C-4 3M+FL shot down 7/9/40
3120 C-2 C-4 3M+CB shot down 3/9/40
3123 C-2 C-4 3M+LL shot down 11/8/40
3208 C-2 C-4 3M+KH shot down 25/8/40
3231 C-2 C-4 3U+LT shot down 11/9/40
3532 C-2 C-4 8./ZG 76 shot down 25/8/40
3534 C-2 C-4 2N+DN shot down 24/9/40
3536 C-2 C-4 3U+GN shot down 2/9/40
3545 C-2 C-4 2N+AC shot down 4/9/40
3551 C-2 C-4 2N+EP shot down 11/7/40
3563 C-2 C-4 2N+HM shot down 4/9/40

So, for the above table, the headings speak for themselves. But what happened? The 'C-2' was equipped with the MG-FF 20 mm cannon; the 'C-4' was equipped with the MG-FF/M improved 20 mm. cannon. So what we see from the above table is that during the production run, the improved MG-FF/M became available for the airframes under construction, thereby upgrading them to 'C-4' specification. The final paperwork leaving the factory with the individual aircraft would should the up-to-date information concerning the aircraft (C-4). So, an initial allocation within the 'C-2' W. Nr. batch allocation became a 'C-4' upon final issue out of the factory. The above table is not comprehensive - it is simply what I discovered, and published in the book I did with Fernando Estanislau on the Bf 110 C, D & E. There are probably other examples.

What has this got to do with the present matter under discussion?

As stated earlier, the 'D-3' and 'E' would have been in parallel production at the FW factory with allocated W. Nr. batches, which we see as 4213 to 4380 for the D-3, and 4381 to 4400 for the E. As 4356 was towards the end of the last D-3 batch to be produced, it is possible that it was ultimately built as an 'E-2', and issued from the factory as such. The difference being the fitment of the cabin heating equipment in the 'E' series, evidenced by the air inlet between the central MGs on the nose cowling, and the inlet on the starboard fuselage aft of the cockpit, as well as tyres of different dimensions and a strengthened undercarriage. Given that that specification was available from August 1940, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it was fitted to some in the 'D-3' last batch. If that was the case, and I'm saying here it is only a possibility, then when S9+TN was lost in action, the paperwork at unit level would show the loss of an 'E-2' variant, not a 'D'. That, I submit, is the likely scenario.

There are other examples of parts cross-over. Photos exist of Bf 110 Cs with the earlier 'B' series canopy, and 'C' aircraft with the 'B' rounded wingtips.

Please forgive this long post, but I felt it necessary to look at matters in more depth, particularly with regard to the factory and the field, having previously identified the differences as outlined above.

As for the matter of an 'F' series, there is nothing in Petrick/Mankau that shows the W. Nr. batch 43XX as being allocated to that variant.


Edit: Re the list of C-2/C-4 aircraft. I set everything up manually OK, but on posting, it was jumbled up! I hope you can read across OK.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Thanks John

Very interesting scenario. I don't think I realized that the difference in real life was in fact so small between the two versions. That a C-2 could be upgraded to a C-4 seems very likely while making a D into an E would be a lot more difficult.
Wonder why they in fact changed the sub-version title in this case and not just continued with a D-x?

Anyway your explanation is very much plausible and I have made an explicit note about it in relevant places.

May I ask if this is the first D-3 WNr that this change can be noticed or are there any lower (or indeed higher) WNrs where this also can be seen?

Thanks again John for taking the time to enlighten all of us :)
Very much appreciated!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

John:
I could add, that as well as I know, ETC50 bombracks were found on the crashplace, and in Your book there are some photoes of S9+TN in flight, wich are showing a Bf110E aircraft. So I suggest it was built as a E variant.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

As I said in my post, Stig, available components were used without regard to the fine details, which researchers and interested people nowadays examine in fine detail. There is a photo that Fernando and I used in our 'Messerschmitt Bf 110 C, D and E: An Illustrated Study' on page 105 that defies accurate description - not just a sub-variant, but an actual variant. Here's that photo:
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3724/IEGnWR.jpg

Regarding a 'D' W. Nr. aircraft becoming an 'E' at the factory stage of construction, as I said, with the factory having the component parts available and the machinery to fit those parts (given that the 'E' was being built at the same time as the 'D'), it's easy to see that airframes could be put on the 'E' production line for the fitment of the latest improvements, and coming off the productionline at the end, the paperwork that accompanied the aircraft would reflect its final form.

I haven't delved deeply into cross-referencing the W. Nr. of D-3s initially allocated with their variant when appearing in the loss lists, but that might be an interesting task, given what I discovered about the C-2/C-4.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

John,

Given your interest in the Bf 110, you might be interested in the following Russian language links concerning the discovery of the aircraft which forms the subject of this thread. This occurred relatively recently, as Evgeny mentioned:

http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/razdel...-110-4356.html

and

http://trizna.ru/forum/topic/38074-%...B%D0%BA%D0%B0/

I can translate some of this content, should you want me to.

Regards,

Dan

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Dan,
Thanks for those links - appreciated. It would be interesting to see what the comments are in those links, so if you or Evgeny (or both of you) can translate any or all of the Russian text, that would be great.

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

I believe I have answered it fully.

Any further comments from you?

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

I have read your interesting interpretations which are not in agreement with the Petrick/Mankau book.

Your listed WNr. in the comparison of the variant C-2 during production and the variant C-4 from the loss lists are correct.
The following Bf 110 C-2 were listed in the Gen.Qu. loss lists as C-2 too:
2121, 3111, 3225, 3235, 3533, 3541, 3548.
Therefore it is not sure that your called C-2 were upgraded to the C-4 specification during the production. For example the Miag built aircraft 3533, 3541 and 3548 were lost as C-2 and not upgraded to C-4 standard, the 3532, 3534, 3536, 3545 and 3563 were built as C-2 and lost as C-4.
According to the Mankau/Petrick book page 176 many C-2 were afterward upgraded to C-4 standard, but not during the production.
Word for word: " Da .... in den Verlustmeldungen Maschinen als C-4 bezeichnet werden, die als C-2 gebaut wurden, sind Bf 110 C-2 nachträglich auf den Stand C-4 gebracht worden."

According to the C-Amts plan from 1 November 1940 FW were supposed to built 94 Bf 110 E-2. In the loss lists are about 73 allocated FW WNr. which appeared in the D-3 variant. Actually FW had delivered only 21 Bf 110 E-2, WNr. 4381-4400. Therefore the FW built WNr. 4356 was a Bf 110 D-3 (compare Mankau/Petrick pages 190, 324 and 325).

The variant "Bf 110 F" in the Gen.Qu. loss report is inexplicable.

I am no specialist for the Bf 110, I have only quoted the Petrick/Mankau book.

Regards
Leo

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Rottler/Leo,
I realise that English is not your first language, and so I made allowances for that in the other thread in which we had a discussion recently.

I believe you have misunderstood the point I was making with my reply in this thread. I was NOT saying all C-2s ended up as C-4s. I was saying that during the production run, things changed (i.e. the improved MG-FF/M 20 mm. cannon being available), and so what was a 'C-2' initial batch of W. Nr. resulted in the end with some of those airframes being upgraded to C-4 specifications and therefore they left the factory as C-4s. I do know that C-2s in the W. Nr. batches left the factory as C-2s, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM DID. Upgrades were also carried out 'in the field', not only for the fitment of 20 mm. cannons, but also for the fitment of armoured windscreens, for example.

Similarly, it appears to me that some of that last batch of D-3s built by FW were actually upgraded to E-2 specifications and therefore left the factory as E-2s.

I have tried to be as clear as possible in my replies to you. Why do I get the feeling that you are arguing with me simply for the sake of argument, rather than trying to grasp the simple statements I make?

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

Hello John,

I have not intended to comment this theme in addition to my comment to Stig Jarlevik in post #6.
In post #15 you have encouraged me to give a further comment. I have nothing to add to my yesterday's reference to the Mankau/Petrick book.

I have taken notice of the results of your research (WNr. 4356 = Bf 110 E-2) and your statements and bring this discussion for my part to an end.

Regards
Leo

Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356
 

I have the Petrick/Mankau book also.

I have nothing to add to my posts either.

Regards,
John V.