seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hi everyone,

I'm seeking some more information about a Ju-88, which was sunk by friend Flak by accident on 10th may 1944, near Port-Vendres, south of France.
No victims. Does anyone have more information ? (crewlist, flightnumber, or something like that)

thanks a lot,

Hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hello Hervé,

nice to have you here.

From KTB 6. Sicherungsflottille:
Regards

Darius

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

thank you Darius! any idea of crew list and mission?
best,
Hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

The problem will be no crew casualties means no NVM

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Not a problem for the crew anyway! ;) Still searching but not many chances to find something any more...

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Is there any possibility that the date was 11 May? There was a major German operation against convoy UGS-40 that night.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

KTB 6. Sicherungsflottille says 10th may... I don't know how accurate the ktb is but I don't think they're wrong.

Another question :
I thought the Ju 88 was shot by Flak Port Vendres ("friendly shot"), but Darius post says "by ennemy plane" (durch feindliches Flugzeug).

Any info very welcome! I do not know any more if this Ju was sunk by the Germans or the Allies... Can anyone help?

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Nick/Herve,

There is a very strong possibilty that the shootdown occurred on 11/12 June, 1944.

Possible contender:

10/11-6-1944
No.151 Sqn. (ADGB)
Mosquito NF.XIII MM448: DZ-E

Ju 88* destroyed 0150, 50m S of St Andre, Southern France.

103504 S/L (Pilot) Reginald Howard HARRISON DFC, RAFVR
121093 P/O (R/O) Edwin Philip Andrew HORREX DFC, RAFVR

See: Those Other Eagles/Shores/252 & RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims 1943-1945-Part Three/Foreman/102.

* Harrison actually claimed a Ju 188.

Col.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hello Nick,

Not to sidetrack the thread, but can you confirm how many German aircraft were lost that night? You wrote in Kampfflieger Volume Four that "Three I./KG 77 aircraft were missing from the first attacking group; from the second, III./KG 77 emerged minus five of its Ju 88s and I./ZG 1 also lost a Ju 88 C. In the third element, no fewer than seven aircraft of III./KG 26 were lost, five of them flown by crews on their first operation." That would make a total of 16 aircraft lost, but you also mentioned that a shadower had been shot down earlier by French Airacobras, so were there other aircraft losses?

You have a private message from me about an administrative matter.

Kind regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you Col,
but I'm not pretty sure of that: according to the ktb 6. Sich, this event occured on 10th may.

Thus, I read the diary story of 151st sq, St Andre was more a village near Bordeaux where an airfield was, so very far of Port Vendres (Port Vendres is near Perpignan, on the mediterranean sea)

No event at all on 10th may? I think more about a RAF squadron based in Mediterranean sea...

thanks,

Hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

The 16 Ju 88s were the losses reported from the attacking force in Luftflotte 3's after-action report (and another seven broke off early with technical problems).

The lost shadower isn't included in that report but in another from Fliegerdiv. 2:

Recce: of the 13 recce aircraft operating from 3 degrees 30 minutes west at irregular intervals, with main emphasis on night recce, only three brought in correct results for conduct of attack, two by day (one P/R) and one by night (with apparatus). Five aircraft broke off task before reaching objective owing technical trouble. One aircraft missing. One further aircraft shot down in sea off Perpignan by Allied aircraft. Remaining aircraft brought back no interpretable results.

If you want to see the ULTRAs that the account in the book was based on, they are KV 3786, KV 3920 and KV 3921. All are on file DEFE3/155 and can be viewed or downloaded free at the National Archives website.

Which I've passed to the site administrator. John and I moderate the discussions, powers over the workings of the site are way beyond us!

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hello

272 claimed a Damaged Ju 88 in the area off "Cap Bagur" ( is this Cap Bear?) at the right time on May 10th. The French P-39 claim was on the 11th, off Algeria. I do not know of any other allied fighter claims of relevance on either day, so it would appear to me to be A/A or weather causing the 16 losses..
Cheers

Russell

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

This was convoy UGS-40 ("Element"). The convoy commander claimed 19 aircraft shot down over and around the convoy. Google UGS-40 and read the excerpt from SE Morrison.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you all,


I still have a problem with the date though : Germans says 10 may, other says 11 may. Strange... The one "shot down off Perpignan" is just the day after the FLB 581 saved the crew of a Ju 88 near Port-Vendres... Strange. Even if this one was one of the plane who broke the task and came back but was shot down, it must not be the day before. Germans says 14h12 for the salvage. When was the attack of UGS-40 : the eleven but at midnight? They didn't need 12 hours to go near Algeria (cap Bagur is in fact cape Bengut, Algeria)


hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

According to the Germans. the attacking force took off from 16.02–16.32 GMT and the first aircraft attacked from 19.07 GMT.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you Nick,
it seems to be 2 german aircrafts sunk in my area then... We dive last week end over maybe one of them.
Do you think some members here, if I send some photographs (but very low remains) could identify the plane model?
I have to sort the photos then I send you one of them...

thank you again for all these informations, great forum!

hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

LOsses "amounted" for the 11.May evening,to a bit more than 17.., at least 9 for the KG26, among them 1 over the Etang de Mauguio, nd no less than 11 for the KG77, one given near l' Etang de Berre friendly fighter fire, nd one crashing at landing at La Jasse,
We hv also 2 losses for the ZG1 on 14. nd 11. May 44 ..it that area

Rémi

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you, Nick, here is another DEFE3 for me to download :) Forgive me for what may be an obtuse question, is it possible to find the same information in the relevant HW5 file?

It appears the shadower that was shot down must have been from KG 77 as well, for the only reconnaissance aircraft that went missing was flying over the Bay of Biscay.

Thank you very much!

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hello Russell and Frank, great to see two members of the esteemed MAW team respond!

Russell, having looked at Morrison online at Frank's suggestion, I assume that the following passage of Morrison is erroneous - "Credit is due also to the intercepting Beaufighters, two of which were lost. They not only forced the German fighter cover to turn back, but knocked down a couple of Junkers planes."

I was surprised that the escorting ships included only two vessels armed with heavy anti-aircraft guns - 4 inch guns on Caledon and 5 inch guns on Benson. It appears that Morrison's emphasis on the superior preparation and fighting performance of the escorting ships is correct.

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Look on the DEFE3 message and at top left you'll see "Ref. CX/MSS…" That is the number of a message on an HW5 file.

My first thought would have been 1.(F)/33. They were engaged in the reconnaissance of these convoys and possessed radar-equipped aircraft as well as photographic ones. On the other hand, KG 77 certainly did night security reconnaissance with radar off the French coast.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you, Nick! If only the good people at the National Archives finally digitised HW5, too. At the rates some forum members are going, they might achieve digitisation before the Archives do :)


I had not thought about 1.(F)/33, but there is no indication that this unit suffered losses in this action. I had forgotten that FuG 200 Hohentwiel was widely used by this time, thank you for the information that KG 77 flew night security missions. Touching on my core interest, I wonder whether FuG 200 was used, even if in small quantities, on the Eastern front during this period. Have you ever seen anything that would indicate this was the case? I think there was probably no requirement for anti-ship radar in the East, given the absence of anti-shipping units, but it's impossible to be sure.

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Conversely, they were Fl.Div. 2's only dedicated long-range reconnaissance asset, so it would be surprising if they weren't part of this operation.

That's covered in the Operation Dragoon section of my website. KG 26 had some aircraft equipped too.

Haven't the faintest idea, sorry.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

I imagine they were involved, no disagreement on this point.


Thank you! Will read it with pleasure.

Will tell you if I find out anything on this subject. Given the various Ju 188s used in the East, it is possible that FuG 200 was in fact employed, if only on a small scale. There were no Ju 88 torpedo bombers in the East, so the Ju 188s appear to be the only possibility.

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

I know writing of crew of Stab.V/KG 26 (with FuG 200 radars fitted) did training or such flights over the Ostsee (Baltic Sea), in summer 1944. (i.e. 1H+ _ F) unit then transferred as Stabstaffel/KG 26 in autumn to North Norway, flying there weather and maritime recce missions until late winter/spring 1945.

One chance of positive I.D. of operational Ju 88 in these waters is recover emergency steel dataplate located near/in rear of tailwheel-bay.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Hello,

I've got a question. I read carefully the KV3920. It doesn't say that those recce aircrafts took off necesserily on 11th may, does it? Because the UGS - 40 convoy was sighted on 9th may already. Maybe the Recce flights began earlier than the 11th, and couldn't it be possible that the plane shot down near Perpignan returning from recce was sunk on 10th may, not on 11th?

It would make sense, as the ktb from 6. Sicherungsflottille says a Ju 88 shot down by allied aircraft on10th may, and has no entry for the 11th may, though it is the same geographical zone. If a Ju 88 had crashed into sea also the day after, it would have been written on KTB, no?

What do you think about this statement?

thanks,

Hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

No it doesn't say what days they were flying, it just deals with operations against this convoy. The convoy entered the Mediterranean early on the 9th, and the Germans probably learned about this from watchers on the Spanish Coast. Then they would have sent aircraft out to search. You may well be looking for a loss from 1.(F)/33 but I don't have any details.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

Thank you very much Nick, we're getting closer...

hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

It could match, as the 1.(F)/33 losses for may 1944 were 7 aircraft shot down by allied (1 Ju 88 D-1, 4 Ju-88 T-1, 1 Ju 188 F-1, 1 Ju 88 A-17).

Hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

All seven aircraft were not necessarily shot down, they were lost "due to enemy action" which can include bombing, strafing or sabotage while on the ground.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres
 

thank you for the precision nick