wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi everyone!

I'm new here. With some friends, we try to identify wrecks (or only parts of them sometimes brought by fishermen) in order to build histories of these relics. I admit we are far better experienced in ships than in planes, so we need help.

First riddle to solve: there's a twin-engine plane that was long supposed to be a Bristol Blenheim, but we have recently obtained other informations that allow to think it could be a ju-88 or a ju-188. The wreck is in a very bad shape and partly covered by sand. Both engines are remaining, but propellers have been removed some decades ago. Here are pictures of one engine that is about 1.2-1.3 m wide and 2.6-2.7 m long. The wing (no more flap) is about 2.4 m wide.

I hope someone could help!

Re: Wreck Identification - Engine Pictures
 

When it comes to underwater wrecks, focus on the motor mounts. Photograph and document those. Put scale in all the photos. Motor mounts are large, robust, obvious parts...and they are 100% diagnostic to manufacturer and aircraft type. Concentrate on those.

Bronc

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Thank you Bronc. Next time we'll have to dive with a shovel and a toolbox instead of a weightbelt...

What seems to be exhaust systems can't allow any hypothesis? It seems it can't be Jumo 211 engine. But what about a BMW one, even though outlets are circular? I have found no picture on the web corresponding to this.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Looks more like a radial engine, bot Jumo 211 or DB. BMW 132, Bramo ?
Exhaust pipes look more like BMW 801.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

If photo Nr.2 is meant, I would want to second this statement. The engine could the be a radial engine BMW801A (arrangement of the exhaust pipes) or more likelier (exhaust end flares) a BMW801E for twin engined a/c. That leads me to suggest, the a/c would then be more likely a Do217E or Do217K.
A Ju88A or C/ Ju188 -as suggested earlier- would have a Jumo 211/ 213 inline engine.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi everyone,

any chance that it could be an english engine ?

hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

With the absence of visible details it could be anything i'm afraid.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Pictures of the tail taken some years ago when it was still in place. Could the plane be laying on its back?
I'm sorry there's no scale: the diver who took these pics never thought they would be used years later to identify the plane. Nethertheless, thanks to details on another photo (diver's equipment), dimensions of the remaining wing on the right on both pics could be approximately 1.3 m long and 0.65 m wide.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

The service ports/ inspection hatches positions are a good point to start comparing.
First things first wing Blenheim pic 1 Ju88 pic 2 By the wreck a part of it goes beyond the flap.

.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Looks a bit like this N-A B25 Michell Pic 3 or Douglas A20 Havoc pic 4

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Definitely not an 801...as the 801 exhaust outlets were oval...not round.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

WHOOPS!!

Eating my words here...

100% that is a BMW801...night fighter.

Look at the 2nd pic...I thought it was just coral...but those are the flame dampers, as used on the Fw190.

Looking BACK at the first pic...you can see them there too (looked like round outlets)...but those are flame dampers, too.

Mike

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Thank you! Yes, flame dampers. These pieces were probably used by both allied and german forces, no?
Pipes of BMW801 were flattened, but those of the wreck seem to be round. We have to check this next time too.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

arg...

I know the BMW801 exhausts were totally round tubes...and then they tapered to an oval/oblong shape towards the end (the last 70cm or so)...

Looking back...these appear to be round all the way.

So scratch the bmw801 idea.


:(

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hello,

would it be possible, when BMW 801 is provided with flame dampers, that exhaust pipes would be round all the way, to avoid excessive flames?

The photo of the flame damper you attached seems very close to the subaquatic picture...

Does anyone know if those flame dampers are standard for both allied and german aircrafts?

thanks,

hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Where did the crash/ditch occured?

ClinA-78

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

No, they tapered to an oval/oblong shape. I have owned a few of them, and had to go back to my pictures to confirm. They basically slide over top of the oval end, and then bolted down.

Mike

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

south of France, not far from spanish border (Port-Vendres area)

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiT...are_p040_W.png

Judging from what others say, I suggest studying this. Only can not find the elevator "horns" and u/c seems gone, if lying upside down. KG 100 and KG 40 flew the type in West MTO, but also others I think.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi,

Sorry too repeat myself, but does someone know if such flame dampers were only on german radial engines, or were those the same on english aircrafts? Because someone who dived on this wreck years ago is pretty sure it was a british engine, as he apparentely saw english writings on a carburetor...

Thanks,

Hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

They were standard to a BMW801E. The way the exhaust pipes appear on the first photos actually suggest (to me atleast) a BMW801, maybe on a Do217.
I dont think this speacial exhaust flares woud apply to an allied engine or a/c.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Having found an english writing on a carburator is disturbing. Do we have a chance to find writings on the remaining pieces? In this case, could someone indicate on one of the pics where to scratch?

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Thank you Chris!
according to the Do 217 scheme and the pic of the wreck years ago, don't you think we can see a match with a Do 217 lying on the back? Flame damping system is over the wings (normally above) and the tail is quite similar to the Do photo attached if lying upside down...)


hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

No worries, Patent is same in many languages. And we have to take it with a grain of salt(water), he was familar with (if BMW 801) the motor type "injection system" (or if Kommandogerat).

But now I step back and watch. Tail has Do 217 (or similar) detail.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

rotated for ease of viewing Do217 tail detail

.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Absolutely correct conclusion (IMO). See for that Snautzer's detail photo above this post. If the photo would be mirrored it would be more evident.

The exhaust pipes you see here on the photos are the pipes of the downward/ side leading exhausts. The engine or the exhaust sysyem is mounted turned on the center axis line by 180 dergrees. So the originally downward facing exhaust pipes on a fighter (pointing under the fuselage e.g. on a Fw190) are in this wreck actually facing above the wing.
This is an indicator, that we are looking at the underside wing surface. What we don't see anymore, is the undercarriage and tail wheel assembly, that might somehow and somewhen been seperated from the wing/ fuselage. So, yes, the wreck appears to be laying on it's back.

Also, the engine does not appear to be complete anymore, as I only see one of the two piston rows of a BMW801. This fact might have led to the theory this could be a british Blenheim with one rowed engines. But if the wreck would have been measured entirely, I suppose a Blenheim would immidiately have been excluded, as a Blenheim is noticeibely smaller then a Do217.

I took the liberty to modify your photo, to visualise what I mean. The "X" marked areas/ objects are now gone on this wreck. The arrows point to what is visible on the wreck photos.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hello,
Excuse me but my bad english made me misanderstand this. Are you saying that"patent", same word on german, was often written on engines parts ? Then I don't get the sentence with kommandogerät... You say that BMW did not have carburetor, but direct oil injection ? Is that correct ?

On which part of this very bad state wreck could we find some other inscription, do you think?

Thanks a lot again for this great forum, it's awesome how much information you all know!

Hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Sorry but one question again: we can't neither eliminate a ju hypothesis, can we ?

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

In my opinion, the tail part of this wreck appears to be that of a Do217. The same part on a Ju88/ Ju188 would look very different.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

I agree about the Ju88/188. Not 100% sure about the Do217 yet. Which unit with Do217 were in the neighbourhood ?

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi Snautzer,

There is a possibility that that plane is the one who was shot down near Perpignan by allied aircraft while returning owing technical problems from the UGS-40 attack on 11th may 1944.
See this post: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=49479

See was Nick wrote : The 16 Ju 88s were the losses reported from the attacking force in Luftflotte 3's after-action report (and another seven broke off early with technical problems).

The lost shadower isn't included in that report but in another from Fliegerdiv. 2:
Recce: of the 13 recce aircraft operating from 3 degrees 30 minutes west at irregular intervals, with main emphasis on night recce, only three brought in correct results for conduct of attack, two by day (one P/R) and one by night (with apparatus). Five aircraft broke off task before reaching objective owing technical trouble. One aircraft missing. One further aircraft shot down in sea off Perpignan by Allied aircraft. Remaining aircraft brought back no interpretable results.
If you want to see the ULTRAs that the account in the book was based on, they are KV 3786, KV 3920 and KV 3921. All are on file DEFE3/155 and can be viewed or downloaded free at the National Archives website.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

I do not think the weck is a Junkers

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

But in the Defe microfilm it isn't said that the plane is a JU. There were also HE and DO in the ugs-40 attack.

I found somewhere else :
Am 11. Mai wurde erneut ein UGS-Konvoi erfasst. Insgesamt 62 Flugzeuge der I. und III./KG 26 sowie der I./ und III./KG 77 griffen den Geleitzug UGS 40 in vier Angriffswellen an. Ein Teil der Angreifer wurde von landgestützten alliierten Jagdflugzeugen vom Typ Beaufighter abgefangen, die 19 Torpedoflugzeuge abschossen.

so the attacking group was from 1st and 3rd group from KG 26 and KG 77. Do you know if there was some dornier planes in those groups?

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

I think the only way to concluded positively this is to have someone go done there with some good lighting and high res camera.

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Unfortunately this video was taken years ago, today the only remains are the epinephelus pics, the plate is gone since years in som fish net!

Maybe someone could "mark" on the epinephelus photo the famous "engine mounts" dear to Bronc, so we can measure them and take some new pics? I don't get where they are...

Hervé

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi,

Here are some photos of a piece stuck in the bottom just next to the wreck.
Any ideas of what it is ? From which plane ? Or not enough details to formulate some hypothesis ?
Two years separate those two pics. 2015 and 2017. This device was pulled by some fishnet, but resisted. The hidden part in the sand must be big...

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Might fit "Do 217" undercarrriage, narrow rear support and remains of wheel cover - all badly corruded/covered in Growth (tyre buried underneath, hooked in oleo?)

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi,

We went back on the wreck despite bad weather conditions. It has been partly buried since the last dive. We have removed some sand around the mysterious piece. We have not found a tyre, but there is another part with curved pieces below. The straight stick is about 70 cm long and the curved pieces are about 40 cm.

I have measured the angle of the wing before and after the engine and it is about 165°. It doesn't fit perfectly with those measured on a basic ju88 plan (170°), but there is a possible variation due to the degraded state of the wing. Based on this observation, it could not be a Do 217? Another posibility intead of a Ju88?

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Bronc would be upset as you don't provide a scale...:D

ClinA-78

Re: wreck identification - engine pictures
 

Hi,

The mystery device looks more like a farming tool (cultivator frame), maybe not part of the aircraft.

But the good point is that it exists an angle. And 5 degrees can be in the average error range, no? The fact is that there is an angle (thanks little shells!), so Do-217 hypothesis can be forgotten. Can someone confirm a Ju or is it still too hypothetic?

thanks,

Hervé.