Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Good afternoon,

On page 337 of Norbert Loy's Der Feldflugplatz Brunnthal, (2016), there appears to be a nose-less fuselage of a Me 262 in solid dark green camouflage behind W.Nr. 130015. The number, I think, is "23", appearing to be in yellow with a thin white surround, in the fighter unit position behind the cockpit in front of the balkenkreuz. Any ideas as to its identity?

best regards,

Jim

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Any possibility of a scan of the photo? Thanks in advance, Dan

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

I'm sorry, Dan. I don't have the technology. Perhaps another member who has Loy's book would post the photo?

Jim

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Mr. Loy understands not much English, so he is not here.
Try ask some of Loys helpers. Like me (!) or Strahljaeger (he is member here).
Mr David E. Brown left the ship before this was first put to sail.
Book has "typos" (more by choosing than intent) but is good in my opinion.

Id of Me 262 A-1a/U3 "White outline 34" is not known.
I have books contents with me but not the book.
Much too large to take with me. Needed cargo plane to bring it along.

Ed (helper)

PS. Dan/Jim we usually ask for photo reproducing permissions, don't we?
--- I have no idea who took that photo/source.

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

1) If you own a smart phone, activate the camera and take a clear close-up of the book photo. A cell phone camera will take a surprisingly good image of a book image. You can even zoom in, and select a square image.

2) The cell phone photo of the book photo will now be in your "Photos" or "Gallery" tab on your cell phone.

3) If you look at this forum from your cell phone, you can up-load the photo directly from your phone to a post right here.

4) If you access this forum from a desktop or laptop, then email the image from off of your phone back to yourself, and then check your email on your computer. Save the image on your desktop, and up-load the photo to a post per usual.

Bronc

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Bronc, please ....
I think you are not up to date with copyright rules / laws.

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Hi Jim,

The aircraft in question is not an Me 262 but an Arado At 96 B coded "ro.23+" of an unknown training unit. A glace at the photo reveals the exposed Argus As 10C inline motor partially covered by the tail of the Me 262 "V015", WNr.130015. The Arado is missing its canopy but the rear faring remains and does look similar to that of an Me 262.

Regarding the Me 262 A-1a/U3 "we.34" of 7./EJG 2, its Werknummer is 500252.

Cheers,

David

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Hi David,

I'm wiping the egg off my face. It was the hump behind the cockpit that misled me. I ruled out Bf 109, FW-190 and Me 410 before I posted. Never thought of a trainer. Thank you for the correction. My apologies to everyone.

Jim

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

David

Your answer made me curious. What you say regarding WNr 500252 is completely at odds with what Dan O'Connell states in his Me 262 Production Log.

Looking next at WNr 130015, Brunnthal is not an option in Dan's book either.

Any explanation please?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Jim,

No need for apologies. At first glace the fuselage does indeed look like that of an Me 262 though for the Ar 96 the faring is more pronounced. Indeed, I dumped the photo in a folder within my Me 262 files as I first assumed that it was an Me 262 that required further study.

Stig,

I cannot speak for Dan but will state that I worked with him on his Me 262 files prior to and during the research phase of his book. Everyone worked with what available data that could be obtained. Certainly in the subsequent 11 years more information has been found and knowledge generated that together adds to, confirms, or corrects information presented in the book.

Regarding White 34, this information was an outcome from my research associated with that of my colleagues Tomas Poruba and Jan Vladar for the JaPo book we authored on the Me 262 and Ar 234: "Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations". Dave Wadman and I had copies of the well known photos of the V015 since the early 1990s but did not know where they were taken except that it was in the Munich area. As Ed notes above, subsequent research later confirmed that it was definitely located at Brunnthal. Ironically, there were many photos taken of the wrecks there that were published for years, but only in the last five or so years was the location finally determined.

Dan maintains his database, and I welcome (and value) his comments on this discussion and any others related to the Me 262.

Cheers,

David

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Nice to see an interesting ME 262 discussion.

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

DEB At least 7 years ago this was known IIRC. Anyway, will try look at some of the original photos from Brunnthal this week at NARA(2) - but opening of JFK files will be in downtown DC.
So expect peace and quiet up here.

Stig, you do a good job at keeping us all working at much higher quality,
but some info is "real old" and I here in the USA archives I do see some things
that are poorly covered. These (below) I never saw before (but maybe someone has published them).
Copied several Navy pictures of Do 17 (possibly "Axis Sally") at Casablanca 08.1944 whilst being loaded
on escort carrier SHAMROCK BAY enroute to the USA. http://i67.tinypic.com/330zlw0.jpg

Ed "The Viking" in Vineland (!)

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Right Eggert :)

Doing the best I can, not always good enough. Since Dan's book is only 12 years old, I am least reading something from this century....
Nice photo by the way. Delighted by the US Navy ID skills.

David
May I remind you that your JAPO book from 2012 p.107 then listed 500232 as 500???. Was there a second edition later? If so I don't have it.

I have no problem with 130015 being at Brunnthal instead of Lechfeldt, but I have still difficulties with 500232. Can you or Dan please advise me how '232' all of a sudden can be with III/EJG 2 when it was at least damaged by fire on 8.4.1945 at Burg bei Magdeburg.

Cheers
Stig

PS: Eggert
Pick some grapes while you can....next time some of us come to Iceland you can offer some Reykjavik wine....:D

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Hi Ed,

Actually, I am extremely well versed, in fact, I am professionally well versed in copyright law.

The Fair Use of a photo is permissible for:

(1) Nonprofit, (2) Educational, or (3) Personal reasons with at least one (1) of the following wildcard factors:

Tipping Factors: (1) Teaching, (2) Research, (3) Scholarship, (4) Criticism, (5) Entertainment, (6) Commentary.

What people do on this list easily qualifies: everything posted here, every photo, is fair use.

All my Best,

Bronc

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Ed,

Thanks for the clarification. I went through my files and see I had convinced myself that the collection site was at Brunnthal back in 2006. You will recall that in May 2008 there was a convergence of opinions online from various researchers including yourself that confirmed this unequivocally.

Stig,

The werknummer I quoted in my posting was 500252 not 500232. The former was identified by Dan as a U3 based on information received from Karl Rentschler. Manfred Boehme in his book “Strahlaufklärer Messerschmitt Me 262 – Die Geschicte der Nauaufklärungsgruppe 6” (VDM Heinz Nickel, 2000) provides a list of known U3s and WNr.500252 is noted therein. Several photos reveal partial views of White 34’s werknummer such that four digits can be identified: “500xx2”. This, combined with the aircraft’s replacement nose, Dan’s description of the machine’s type (U3) and history (crash and damage to the nose) to me indicate a reasonable probability that White 34 was WNr.500252. Unfortunately, this did not all come together until after the 2012 publication of the JaPo book.

Cheers,

David

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Sorry David

500232 was a typo by me (if you check my first post, I DO write 500252)
So what you are saying is that the general consensus right now is that 500252 was repaired after its accident and went to III./EJG 2.

I will then add the details in Dan's book

Cheers
Stig

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

I easy'ly forget arguments and such only wrongdoings often stick. Anyways copied both Signal Corps prints yesterday (dated 05-05-46), but they are small kontact ones.
Have sent both to authors of book. No others from Brunnthal were in that box.

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Stig,

The above is my thesis based on my interpretation of the information available to me that I believe is reasonable. It is not a consensus. Others can review the same data and make their own interpretations. Hopefully new photos will turn up to confirm White 34's werknummer one way or another.

David

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Yes David

I have already noted all this down :)

Cheers
Stig

Hi.

The photo section shows the initially described aircraft "23". The wreck (an Arado Ar 96) lay in the scrap yard of the airfield Brunnthal, directly behind the Me 262 V015, serial number 130015.

Regards
Matthiashttps://www.dropbox.com/s/sy8h53y67u...23%2B.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sy8h53y67u...23%2B.jpg?dl=0

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Thank you, Matthias.

As David said the rear faring is more pronounced, as is the angle of the tail.

Jim

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Hello everyone,
Regarding post #20, has anyone else noticed what appears to be a Bf 109 just to the right of the GI's head in the foreground. It appears to be an older heavy-framed canopy from a Bf 109 G.
I was aware of one Bf 109 “AS” nestled under an He 111 in an early iteration of the Brunnthal junkpile, but this appears to one a new one.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

Yes, there are more airframes yet unindentified under the pile of tails.
Evedently you are now credited for this new Bf 109 ... unless Matthias had more info.
Travelling last night somehow has slowed my brain, not shure if this has something to do with alleged jetlag (or Airbus Sardine syndrome)

Re: Me 262 A-1a Yellow 23 at Brunnthal dump?
 

We found two Bf 109, both late versions. One of the west and one of the east site of the junk pile. But no more information...