NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hello One and All,

does anyone know of any combat loss of (probably) a Ju88, possibly of NJG2 or 4, somewhere NW to W of Wesel on the night of the 3rd/4th February 1945.

Apparently such a loss was confirmed by the HQ of No 83 Group, 2TAF, RAF...

Cheers

RodM

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

A Ju 88 G-6 of 3/NJG 2 crashed as a result of combat near Marienfeld; the other losses were a He 219 and a Bf 110

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Chris,

thanks for the details.

I cannot say if the Marienfeld loss would relate to the specific incident. The 'Ju88' attacked a RAF Lancaster illuminated by a fighter flare in the region NW to W of Wesel just after 2005 hrs, as the Lancaster was homeward ater attacking Bottrop. The Ju88 opened fire from behind at a range of 150 yrds and the rear funner of the Lanc returned fire with a 5 second burst that lasted until the Ju88 passed under the Lancaster at a range of 25 yrds. The pilot saw the night fighter enveloped in flames (it was he who 'positively identified' it as a 'Ju188') at very close distance just under the Lanc's starboard wing before it dived down out of sight.

The Lancaster, itself on fire, struggled on a further 40-50 miles before it was abandoned over Allied lines. According to a report, the HQ of 83 Group 2 TAF confirmed that witnesses on the ground saw the combat and also saw the Ju88 crash, which was also confirmed. In view of the witnesses, I doubt that the 2TAF info would be derived from 'Y' Traffic, which could've been the case for the Ju88 that crashed at Marienfeld...

The He219 was that of Hptm. Graf Rességuier and was also shot down by a bomber (one of those that attacked Dortmund) that crashed soon after.

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Difficult to read the NVM, but location seems to be Marienschildt near Gütersloh, not the fastest way to return from the Ruhr..there are others losses of Ju88, these nights, but without crew casualties.

remi

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Remi,

thanks for the reply. I can find no reference to a place called either Marienschildt or Marienscheldt... I've checked the history of I./NJG2 and it states that the aircraft was lost "by Marienschild, by Gütersloh airfield". No luck with that spelling either...


Would you happen to have any information about any of the other Ju88s lost (excl non-combat)?

Unfortunately, the RAF report is not specific enough about the circumstances of the alledged loss.

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

There's a Marienfeld about 8km NW of Guetersloh town centre - just a guess.

I thought the 219 was shot down by a 410 Sqn Mossie - is this incorrect?

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Mark,

thanks for the info.

A check of the 410 Sqdn combat report concerned showed that the combat and claim had nothing to do with the Hptm. Rességuier loss as has so far been reported (shot down simultaneously by the rear gunner of his victim and from behind by a night fighter after being illuminated by a S/L). For one, the cirumstances were different - the He219 claimed by the Mossie was orbiting around a beacon/was not caught in a search light or attacking a bomber and, secondly, it occurred an hour and a half later (2200 hrs) than the claim by Rességuier (at which time the He219 was shot down, according to a crew member of the He219).

The identity of Rességuier's victim (and possible victor) for that matter can only be narrowed down to two bomber losses, both of which crashed in the München Gladbach area - no crew members survived from either aircraft so no new light can be shed on the incident. I guess the possibility remains that, in the absence of any corresponding Mossie claim, Rességuier's He219 was fired on from behind by either another Nachtjäger or a bomber.

The combat originally mentioned in the thread shows how nothing can be taken for granted. The Lancaster lost (PD378 ) crashed around 8 miles SSW of Eindhoven so intially it seemed that the night fighter attack would've happened in that area. In fact, as previously mentioned, the attack occurred 50 miles further east and the Lanc limped on past Allied lines before the crew baled out. No corresponding Nachtjagd claim has been found that ties in with the reported circumstances.

As for the possible Ju88 crash, I guess that will go into the "?" basket since not enough details are known about what the witnesses actually saw or where.

More will be revealed in Dr. Theo Boiten's forthcoming book....

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi.

I have one aircraft from I./N.J.G.2, probably the one mentioned by RT, piloted by Lt. Ernst Boeving (name correct?)

Also, an aircraft from I./N.J.G.5 and one from I./N.J.G.4 was lost due to something that could have been an encounter with enemy aircraft.

I have details of 15 Ju 88 lost on 3/4 Feb 1945 altogether.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Andreas,

thanks for the reply, the History of I./NJG2 (Rökker) gives the spelling as Lt. Böving, in Ju88 G-6 W.Nr. 620584 of 3./NJG2 (and the main narrative entry gives the place as 'Marienfeld' as Mark suggested), noting that the loss was due to unknown cirumstances (presumedly no bullet holes found in wreckage?).

I'd be intersted to know if any of the crash places of the other losses that you have would be in a location to the NW of the Ruhr. I only have a few published sources to go on and, of course, combined they are woefully incomplete.

Interestingly, according to an RAF Bomber Command IT report, compiled a few days after the raid, bomber crews returning from Dortmund claimed 1 Me110 destroyed and crews returning from Bottrop claimed 1 FW190 destroyed (presumably the claim by the crew of PD378, who took some days to return from Holland wasn't at hand at the time the report was made). These appear to be the total sum of the bomber crew claims.

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Thanks Rod and Andreas.

Any indication then which He 219 was attacked by the Mossie? I've a note that another 1./NJG 1 crash-landed at Handorf after ejection seat failure, but, as ever, that's from a secondary source, and Handorf's a looooong way from Garzweiler (if indeed that's the location given by the 410 Sqn. combat report).

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Mark,

the Garzweiler location is correct. As is usually the case, the details known just don't neatly (and conveniently) tie in together! I believe that the KTB of I./NJG1 also confirms this incident as originally described, which again precludes the possibility of the 410 Sqdn Mossie. The height of the Mossie combat alone, if correct, rules out any night fighter hunting in the bomber stream.

Anyway, following is the text of the 410 Sqdn Combat Report (courtesy of Richard Koval in Canada):

"Statistical
3-4, February 1945
410 Sq RCAF
Mosquito XXX MK X AI
22:00
F-1574 (Approx Garzweiler Area)
Clear Starlight Visibility excellent
Nil
Nil
1 HE-219 destroyed
Nil
Pilot FL BE. Plummer Nav FL EH. Collis
Airbourne from B-48 ( Amiens Glisy ) at 20:55, landing back at 23:50 hours. Set course from AI beacon FY and handed over to Greenroger 15119 GCI SLdr Allen. Patrolled for a short time in Roermund area at 10,000 feet, informed of trade 8,000 feet above and south, given vector of 190 degrees. We were informed by GCI that target was possible friendly and GCI was trying to establish identity. Given easterly vector and still climbing. At 15,000 feet was informed that target was definately a bogey. FL Plummer continues, GCI told us that the target was orbitting and gave us a cut off vector. Contact was obtained at 3 miles, starboard, 40 degrees above at height of 18,000 feet. Target was doing continuous orbits. We climbed to 26,000 feet and obtained a visual on the exhausts (which appeared greenish) at 2,000 feet range, target 12 o clock 30 degrees. We closed to 500 feet, dead below and identified as a HE-219, closed further to 200 feet dead below and FL Collis confirmed identity with aid of night glasses. The recognition features most prominant were wing shape (which in plan view to be extremely similar to the thunderbolt wing) and engine nacelles extended beyond wing. We dropped back to 500 feet range, dead behind, height still 26,000 feet and opened fire with one burst and an explosion was seen in the fuselage, followed by a slight fire. The EA dived off steeply to port, I followed him down until our speed passed 450 mph and pulled out and did an orbit, my height was 17,000 feet. The EA was seen to explode and burn on the ground. I gave Canary to GCI and asked for a fix. We were told by SLdr Allen that another bogey was near by, possibly investigating us. We were given various vectors but no contact was obtained and were were informed the bogey dissappeared. Fix was given as F-1574, approximately Garzweiler. We returned to position of kill and searched at 3,000 feet above fire to see if second bogey was investigating crash but had no joy. No return fire was experienced, therefore I claim 1 HE-219. Ammo used 27 rounds 20 mm."


Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Many thanks Rod (and Richard!).

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Rod,

Any details available on the title and publishing date?

Much obliged,
Leon Venter

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Leon,

the forthcoming book is, "The Nachtjagd War Diaries", due out (hopefully) in the first half of next year...

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Guys,

I am doing much research on Lanc PB378(crashed near Eindhoven) and I am in touch for a few years with former Pilot Don Freeborn. His reargunner Gerry McNamara stated that he shotdown a fighter. In Freeborn's logbook excellent atack on Bottrop, shotdown by N/F baled out crew in Holland-N/F destroyed by reargunner-returned 5-2-45. Don Freeborn account;PB378 was attacked a short time after the raid when we were on our way home. Gerry McNamara saw the fighter under our a/c after he set us on fire. I had ordered the crew to bail out and they were all gone when Gerry asked me to "level out". I was diving to attempt to put the fire out without success. I was unaware that he saw the fighter under us firing upward under our belly.I pulled out of a dive which put the German directly behind us. Gerry could see the crew in their upward firing pos with gunner lying on his back. He opened fire when I was leveled and saw hits on the enemy a/c. When he saw fire coming from it he said "okay Skipper I got him and I am leaving", His turret wouldn't rotate so he jettisoned his guns and climbed out of the hole. Army people as well as me saw the German go down. It was confirmed shortly thereafter and Gerry receive a DFM immediate award".

Note: I still wondering which a/c Gerry shotdown. In his account he always talked about a twin engined nightfighter. Anyone who can put a light on this???

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

well Lanc that is an interesting acct. and one that Rod is trying to ascertain. Andreas mentions or someone that some 15 Ju88G's were in process of being damaged but not a total loss on this February evening, if I am correct in my understanding. the big question when "fire" was witnessed on the Ju 88 was it fuselage or engine and the possibility that the Ju 88G diving away to extinguish it and limped back home as damaged. A big question that is probably not answerable.
I also find it odd that the Ju 88G after a Schräge Musik attack with witness of the German crew that the RAF bomber was on fire did not zoom up and to one side out of harms away had the RAF bomber plunged downward. The standard procedure for Ju 88G crew's but obviously not in this case

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Lanc and Erich,

thanks Lanc for your interesting account. Without having cited any ORB entry, a RAF Bomber Command K-Report exists for this event (the K-Report was a special debrief/interrogation of surviving crew members made shortly after the loss of the aircraft). Without quoting verbatim (it's a long-winded report), following is a summary of events from the report. You will notice that the report reads a little differently that the pilot's account:


"Homeward, in an area approximately 10 mi NW of Wesel, several searchlights were noted to be track indicating, 1 well to S/B and 3 close on the port side. Immediately afterwards, at approx 5146N 0627E, 2005 hrs, 16000 ft, several fighter flares were dropped in the vicinity of the aircraft, one of which ignited so close to the rear turret that the R/G was momentarily blinded. The R/G gave a "cockscrew starboard" and just after this had commenced, within a matter of seconds, the R/G saw an u/i a/c approaching from the S/B quarter, approx 30 deg below. The u/i N/F immediately opened fire with, the R/G believed, 2 forward firing 20mm guns at a range of 150 yrds. R/G replied with a continuous 5 sec burst that lasted until the guns could no longer bear, at 25 yrds range. Both S/B M/Gs had stoppages after only a few rounds but the port guns functioned satisfactorily. After the N/F passed out of range of the rear turret, it was seen by the pilot to pass in a sharp bank very close under the Lanc's S/B wing. The N/F, positively identified by the pilot as a 'Ju188', was enveloped in flames and it was last seen diving steeply in flames. However, the N/Fs burst of fire had hit the S/B wing and engines of the Lanc, resulting immediately in both engines and wing becoming enveloped in flames. Another cannon shell smashed the astrodome, wounding the W/Op. The pilot continued a dive that had started as a c/s in the hope of being able to extinguish the fire. The pilot warned the crew to prepare to abandon the a/c. After losing 6000 ft, as the fire was spreading to the fuselage, the pilot decided to get the crew to abandon the aircraft so he levelled out. However, finding that he still had control, he decided to press on a bit to regain Allied lines and advised the crew to wait for definite instructions to bail out. Just after the front lines were crossed, as confirmed by the Nav, the fire started to take hold of the fuselage so the pilot ordered the crew to bail out, commencing a wide orbit to S/B. Just after the other 6 crew members had left the Lanc, the S/B wing outboard of the S/O engine broke away completely and the pilot somehow managed to get out the the diving Lanc. All the crew saw the aircraft crash 8 mi SSE of Einhoven, about 50 mi from where the N/F attack was made. 6 members of the crew landed safely but the Nav was killed, cause unknown, after baling out. The pilot was later informed by HQ No 83 Group (2nd TAF) that the combat was witnessed from the ground and that the enemy night fighter was also seen to crash in flames."

The RAAF Casualty file for the navigator doesn't have much to add other than giving the time of the attack as 19.43 hrs (quoted as 20.05 hrs in K-Report).

As can be seen, the report is specific about the method of attack - from behind and below rather than directly underneath. It may be that the night fighter was moving in to attack from underneath but it was spotted and evasive action taken before it could do so. It is only when the night fighter broke away, presumably with excess overtaking speed that it passed under the Lanc. The details of some of the damage is consistent with an attack from behind rather than below.

Cheers

Rod

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

yes attack from the rear and slightly below, does not now according to the rest of the story an SM attack was going to occur. hard to say with the evidence and the quickness of the attack/RAF response to know certainly.

thanks Rod for this addition

Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45
 

Hi Rod,

That's very usefull information, especially because I keep me busy with PB378.

Many Thanks again,
Adrian