Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

Hello all,

I'm trying to tie down a Bf110 which was shot down in Christchurch Bay (then off Hampshire, now Dorset coast). It was claimed by Dundas of 609 Squdn, but more likely shot down by Ostazewski, though the ORB doesn't record him as flying that day, a third party account does indicate he did.

Basically I've seen a fair few references to Bf110 loss lists but never found a copy or indication who might have access to it. The aircraft was probably from ZG26, and was lost with its crew. The dogfight in which it was involved saw the loss of 3 Hurricanes (though one was rebuilt as a Sea Hurricane) and 3 Bf109s, one of which crashed and was written off landing back at base. JG2 claimed 6 Hurricanes and 5 Spitfires. I believe the ZG26 records were destroyed at the end of the war.

I'd like to know what unit the aircraft was from and the names of the crew.

Any help would be gratefully received.

Richard

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Aug 1940
 

ZG 26 did not operate over Hampshire/Dorset until September 1940. There were quite a number of Bf 110s lost that day-5./ZG 2 lost one into the Channel but it was II & III./ZG 76 that lost the most. II./ZG 76 lost five of which four came down on land in the Solent area. Further west, III./ZG 76 lost four, all of which came down in the sea off Portland/Weymouth. Dundas made no claims that day and Ostazewski shared a Bf 110 of 6./ZG 76 with Zurakowski of 234 Sqn and which crashed on the Isle of Wight. 609's claims were against II/ZG 76 but of the III/ZG 76 losses, 7 crew were killed and one captured but no precise locations exist

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

You are quite right Chris, I was being dyslexic, mainly because I,m also interested in the 15th August. I should have said 15th October 1940. Apologies. Does the correct date help?

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

So what date is it?

15th October 1940 that should make more sense!

15 Oct 1940 - as above, I guess it took some time for the admins to approve my post and you got in before my reply was approved.

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

Richard,
There were no Bf 110 losses on 15th October 1940 in any action against mainland England...

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

That is very odd indeed as there are a number of corroborative sources, obviously 609 squadron claimed one as noted in their ORB, Dundas claimed it in his combat report even though he saw no impact, Ostazewski claimed it but appears not to have handed in his combat report, he claimed the rear gunner was dead at least. The Coastguard recorded it crashing as did the Royal Observer Corps and R.A.F. Christchurch airfield in their Log Book ... so what sources can I, check. I know that it doesn't apear in BoBT&N but should I be looking in the Luftwaffe QMG returns?

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

Thanks John,
I'm wondering if a loss may have been recorded on the wrong date, maybe the day following. I did reply but it never appeared (I'm not sure why) however three different sources excluding the combat reports, record a Bf110 being shot down in Christchurch Bay, 1 mile E of Hengistbury head to be precise. It would be useful to know if ZG26 were flying a mission on the 15th of October 1940 in conjunction with JG2. Do you know if such records survive?

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

The Luftflotte 3 report timed 1645 hrs on 15 Oct 40 states that fighter units from Jafü 3 carried out a fighter sweep (not an escort sortie) between 1245-1400 hrs consisting 23 Bf 110s of ZG 26 and 47 Bf 109s of JG 2. ZG 26 were attacked SW Southampton but managed to disappear into cloud; no losses or claims. 47 Bf 109s of JG 2 were involved in a combat west of the Isle of Wight losing just 2 aircraft in combat but with I./JG 2 claiming 6 Hurricanes and a Spitfire and II./JG 2 claiming 3 Spitfires. It reiterates again that the only losses in combat were 2 Bf 109s from JG 2

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

No Bf 110s were lost over southern England on 14th, 16th & 17th October 1940.

I don't know how experienced you are with regard to research, but if you have done decades of research as I have done (and also Chris Goss), you will come to realise that what is claimed, and what actually happened, are in a lot of cases quite at odds with each other, and there is no way of reasoning out why. And for researchers, sometimes, there is absolutely no explanation, short of human error or outright lying (and it is unfortunate to say this, but it DID occur).

Re: Bf110 losses on 15 Oct 1940
 

Thanks Chris and John.

It's been a while since I've done much research into aircraft losses, probably over 20 years ago, so am indeed rather inexperienced in this particular field. I am however a professional historian (though this piece is for personal interest!) working mainly in the medieval and early modern periods and am therefore very well acquainted with the use of historical sources. I am not however very experienced in what Luftwaffe material is available, hence my question. I needed therefore to be test the claims before I could come to a conclusion. I hope it did not come across as if I did not believe you, you are after all undisputed experts in this field. I was already aware that the JG2 claims were massively over the mark, so it is unsuprising to see errors on the RAF side too. As historians you will both recognise that accepting one side of the story without testing it is does not produce history. As such I can only say how grateful I am for your input, it may not bring the story to a neat conclusion but does highlight the complexity and confusion which arises in battle. Thanks again for your help, Richard.