Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

We are researching this incident. Aircraft was shot down by Mosquito of 488 Sq and crashed at Iden, Rye, East Sussex at 02.40hrs. Pilot, Lt.Baack killed attempting forced landing. Gunner, M.Strasser, baled out and suffered a broken leg. Any further information in respect of this aircraft and its mission would be useful especially the fate of the gunner.

Graham Holmes
Lashenden Air Warfare Museum

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Was in touch with the 488 Sqn pilot and am still in touch with the Nav/Rad. Target was London and it was one of 6 Me 410s which attacked at 0230-0236 hrs German time with 12 SC 500 bombs and was reported as seen being shot down by other crews in PlQ 05E/22344 at 0243 hrs. No contact has ever been made with Strasser as far as I am aware and there are no known photos of the crash/German crew

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Hello Graham,

Gen.Qu. loss report from 23 December 1943 with corrections from 13 and 31 January 1944:
20.12. 14./KG 2 Feindflug Ort: Unbekannt, Ursache: Unbekannt
Me 410 A-1 420085 U5+HE 100%
F Lt Günter Baack gefallen
Bf Uffz Michael Strasser vermisst.

Ulf Balke "Der Luftkrieg in Europa" Vol. 2 page 472:
19./20.12.1943 14./KG 2 Zielort: London, Verlustort: Boonshill Farm Iden Rye, Ursache: Mosquito 488 Sqd. P/O Robinson.
Me 410 A-1 420085 U5+HE 100%
F Lt Heinz-Günther Baack +
Bf Uffz Michael Strasser POW. FS-Absprung 02.35 Uhr .

Regards
Leo

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Hi Chris & Leo,

Thank you both very much for the information.

The project was initiated after I was given a copy of Robinson's combat report. It's very detailed but says little about the 410, its occupants and their mission. I am hoping to meet with a member of the Mosquito crew (not sure which one) through a third party who provided the combat report.

Michael Strasser broke his leg after baling out and was taken to the British General Hospital at Benenden, Kent for treatment. The hospital was only temporary and was situated at what is now Benenden School. My guess is that subsequently Strasser would have been interrogated at Cockfosters and then moved either to the U.S. or Canada. He may even have spent some time at a camp in the UK, doing farm labouring.

Graham Holmes

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Robinson if still alive was suffering from dementia at least 15 years ago. Terry Clark his Nav Rad is approaching 100 & as one of the very few surviving Battle of Britain aircrew is constantly put upon. I doubt he could add anything more. I do have photos of both aircrew

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

There is a photo of Lt.Baak of 14/KG2 in front of his Me 410 on page 287 of the
Messerschmidt Bf 110 Me210 Me 410 book by Heinz Mankau/Peter Petrick . The photo is credited to Baak, plus another researcher obtained a head and shoulders photo of Baak (Baack) a few years ago I believe through his family . Baack had claimed a twin engined aircraft south of Lincoln on 3/4-09/43 . The ADI(K) report says the badly injured Strasser was located 20m miles away from the crash site

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Standard route for German pows was Cockfosters - pow camp in the UK - shipped to Canada.

Once the war was over, they were technically no longer pows. From those I interviewed many years (read decades!) ago, they were given two options: 1) stay put in camp and do nothing until repatriated; or 2) get out and do work under the guidance of the military authorities.

So, Otto Hintze (Staka, 3./Erpr. Gr. 210, pow 29/10/40) told me he did work as a lumberjack for a year or so in Canada, and loved it, prior to returning to the UK, and on back to Germany.
Georg Jakstadt (9./ZG 26, pow 27/9/40), upon being returned to England went out 5 days a week with others and worked on a farm in Cambridgeshire, prior to repatriation.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

At what time exactly they returned home ??

Always amazed to see that by the americans or frenchs some returned only in 1946, when they returned ..

Rémi

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Technically German POWs remained POWs after May 1945 because the war did not end at this date, only fighting did. At this date the German forces surrendered but the end of state of war was in 1950-1951 for Western Powers and in 1955 for USSR.

This brings me some questions about the status of Italian POWs after October 1943, where Italy was a cobelligerent of the Allies while the peace treaty between Italy and the Allies was only signed in 1947.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Things are a bit more rought, allies decided in 1945 to not observe Geneva Convention, signed by Germany nd most of allies, except Russia,the scope of the convention was to make the war more "human", so literally not behave like animals , Convention for example, theoricaly consider as free, the prisoners, as soon as the armistice is signed, so the 9.Mai 45, nd prohibite slave or/nd dangerous work like demining.., to explain their enfringment to this Convention , the allies put forward the unconditionnal surrender, no legal gouvernment, to much people to manage....
Considering question of the casualties resulting of the inobservance of the Convention, it's highly controversial , low figures, only considering West some dozens of thousands to hundred of thousands, including East we reach the millions, nd it's necessary, or not, to add the civilians

Rémi

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Well, your first paragraph flies in the face of all that I have been told by several German pows regarding their status.

Also, tell me how you arrive at the end of the war in the west being 1950-51.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

The allies had a sytem of categorising the German prisoners by colour:
White = those who were not indoctrinated into the Nazi system, and therefore needed little in the way of 'teaching' them about the evil of what the Third Reich had done;
Grey = those who may be considered to have been sway by the Nazi doctrine to some degree, and needed to 'dis-indoctrinated' (for want of a better word) regarding the Third Reich; and
Black = those the allies definitely believed were Nazis. Those in this category went through a programme which totally exposed for them all the horrors of what the Third Reich had done. I believe this 'course' took several months.

The 'White's were the first batch to be repatriated, followed by the 'Grey's, and lastly the 'Black's. The timing of repatriation was not only therefore driven by these categories, but also by the capability of the allies to get the pows back to Germany and discharge them in the proper way, as well as those already held on mainland Europe at the end of the war. It was a massive undertaking, as can be imagined. And once discharged, they were on their own - the infrastructure of Germany was shot at war's end. George Jakstadt (pilot, 9./ZG 26) told me that when he was discharged in Hamburg, he then walked the 250 kilometres to his home, and said it was a common sight to see returning servicement on the roads walking home.

There was an excellent documentary on TV here several years ago about this very subject of how the pow situation was handled, and it was most interesting.

Hope this helps.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Diplomatically, 1950 or 1951 is the date where the Western countries declared the end of the state of war with Germany. So until this date, they were technically at war with it.

There was no peace treaty with Germany at the end of WWII, due the Cold War starting soon. The Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany was finally negociated in 1990.

To return to the German POWs in 1945, I know mostly the situation in France where Germans POWs were used to rebuild the country and clean minefields (with French experts) until the end of 1948. And they had a POW status. At least for French it was normal, as in 1940 France capitulated and more than 2 000 000 men were sent in POW camps in Germany, most of them until being liberated in 1945 by the Allies.

I know that in 1945 and 1946, hundred of thousands of German POWs were delivered to the French by Americans. 600 000 should be delivered in 1946 but these "deliveries" were stopped in 1946 by the Americans, that say they needed manpower in Germany. This seems to indicate that Americans did not release all POWs available in Germany. But another source says that numerous German POWs delivered to French were returning from USA to Europe. I guess they were excepting to return to Germnay and were heavily disappointed.

Great Britain itself did not start to send back its German POWs to Germany in September 1946 and ended in 1948. By late 1947, almost all restriction on German POW movement and extra camp activities were lifted... which means that they existed before this date.

The fact that in most countries after 1945 German POWs could work outside POW camps and even life in farms with local families did not cancel their POW status, meaning that they couldn't return to their home country. French POW in Germany live the same situation in 1940-1945 (and at least some effectively replaced German farmers completely in this period).

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

My post hs been deleted :D ,,??

Rémi

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

This site gives figures nd explain how POWs could hv been handle, not so irenic as John said..


http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchi..._1_4_smith.pdf

Rémi

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Laurent,
Putting it bluntly, what I have highlighted in bold in what I have quoted from you above is rubbish. For the simple reason that the terms were unconditional surrender. The Allies WERE NOT PREPARED TO & DID NOT enter into any negotiations regarding terms, hence the reason why Germany had to be 100% over-run, and the structure of the Third Reich dismantled 100%. To claim that 'diplomatically' the war did not end until 1950-51 is garbage, and it has to be called out as such. What happened post-1945 was called reconstruction, which, in keeping with the setting up of a new German Government, would have meant making arrangements with that Government as to the way forward, and as to the way things would be done, going forward.

The volume of German prisoners at the end of the war was such that they could not all be suddenly dumped back into Germany in one fell swoop. To do so would be stupidity on a grand scale. So if former German prisoners were employed on helping to return the infrastructure to what it was previously where they were based, at the time, do you see any harm in that? Were they ALL to be left to sit on ther arses and do nothing for years? Come on, Laurent, get real...

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

May I urge all concerned to conduct this discussion in words reflecting seasonal goodwill?
Thanks.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Maybe you need also to ask some to post sensible posts also, Nick. To say WW2 in Europe finished in 1950-51 (and not only that, but try to justify it as well...) is one person's attempt to re-write history. And quite frankly, it insults the intelligence of the many on here who quite simply know otherwise...

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

John Vasco, you are funny ! Goodwill times of the moment is Chritmas, not Carnival

Rémi

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Nice of you to think I'm funny.

On the point in question, I'm quite serious. Doesn't matter whether it is posted at Christmas or mid-year...

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

I never said that WWII lasted until 1951, I said that a technical state of war existed between Germany and the Western powers up to this date, that is different at least in my humble opinion. Some (not me) even say that as Germany did not exist as an unified state until 1990, this state of war was only officially closed in 1991.

My point was that German POW existed in this time period and while many were freed in some months and many other lived in farms, other were just sitting in POW camps or being used for jobs they did not volunteer for.

I propose to close this discussion by agreeing we disagree. Best wishes for the end of the year.

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

Simple fact: a state of war in the West ceased when Germany was over-run from all sides and completely occupied. The Third Reich no longer existed.

And please, do not insult my intelligence by saying this above: "...I never said that WWII lasted until 1951..." This is what you said on page 1: "...Technically German POWs remained POWs, after May 1945 because the war did not end at this date only fighting did. At this date the German forces surrendered but the end of state of war was in 1950-1951 for Western Powers and in 1955 for USSR..."

How much clearer can it be that you said the war did not end until 1950-51? German prisoners had nothing whatsoever to do with the end date of the war. You have made a totally false statement, and now will not concede the point. If you are going to have a debate/discussion on THAT basis, don't even bother in the first place...

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

John,

I usually don’t get involved in other people’s argument but I believe Laurent has some points, though he should have stated legally (in terms of international law) rather than diplomatically. The following link details the 1949 Geneva Convention changes with respect to POWs that can explain the reasoning.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...2563cd00428f5e

I’m no lawyer, but to me the important points extracted are:

1. Article 20 of the Hague Regulations of 1907 simply stated that, after the conclusion of peace, the repatriation of prisoners of war should be carried out as quickly as possible. In accordance with this general rule, Article 214 of the Treaty of Versailles, signed on June 28, 1919, read as follows: "The repatriation of prisoners of war and interned civilians shall take place as soon as possible after the coming into force of the present Treaty and shall be carried out with the greatest rapidity." The Treaty entered into force only on January 15, 1920 -- more than fourteen months after the armistice.
2. Article 75 of the 1929 Convention therefore tried to expedite repatriation by stipulating that it should, if possible, take place as soon as an armistice had been concluded. For many Powers, however, the Second World War ended without either armistice or peace treaty, and it was all the more shocking that captivity should be prolonged. In the case of German prisoners of war, for instance, the elimination of the German State prevented the normal operation of the Convention. Furthermore, in those circumstances there was no danger of any resumption of hostilities.
3. At the Conference of Government Experts, some delegations pointed out that the Second World War had shown the 1929 text to be inadequate, since hostilities could cease without any peace treaty, or even armistice. It was therefore essential to lay down that repatriation should take place as soon as possible after the end of hostilities, and to make this requirement unilateral so that its implementation would not be hampered by the difficulty of obtaining the consent of both Parties (1).

Basically, my understanding of the above, the Hague Convention of 1907, determined POW’s should be repatriated as soon as possible after the signing of a Peace Agreement. Due to the long duration for this to happen between Armistice and Peace Agreement after WWI, the Geneva Convention of 1929 changed this to include the signing of an Armistice. With the unconditional surrender of the German Armed forces at the end of the hostilities in Europe and the dissolution of the German Government soon after, there was no formal agreement to end the state of war with Germany. One of the tasks for the Allied Control Council that was set up in August 1945 was to establish a new German Government to pave the way for the process, but firstly due to difficulty with the French who were upset about not being part of the Potsdam Agreement, then the oncoming cold war, a new government for the whole of Germany became impossible. Thus, a state of war still existed with Germany for many years after the unconditional surrender.

When you stated that “German prisoners had nothing whatsoever to do with the end date of the war.” I assume you are referring to their Status as POWs’s and their repatriation. Well in my opinion you are wrong, otherwise why bother to rewrite the Geneva Convention of 1949 !

Furthermore, with respect to the 1950-51 dates, Laurent is correct, a state of war did still exist to that point. In regards to the USA, President Harry S Truman terminated the “State of War” with Germany through Congress with a signed declaration on 19 October 1951. – see link

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=13969

Other allied countries had similar procedures on varying dates in 1950-51 (UK 9 July 1951). This is even after Harry S Truman declared the cessation of hostilities on 31 December 1946. Why would Harry Truman do such a thing if “unconditional surrender” was absolute unless there was legal ramification!
Furthermore, it is important to note the following paragraph from the declaration:

“Whereas it has been and continues to be the policy of the United States to bring about the conclusion of a treaty of peace with the government of a united and free Germany, but efforts to this end have been frustrated and made impossible for the time being by the policy of the Soviet Government;”

In 1990 with the reunification of Germany, the four (4) major power of WWII all signed the “Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany” which was basically a Peace treaty (though not exactly called that) with the Government of a united and free Germany. Basically, East and West Germany gave up the rights to claim back the ceded territories of 1945 plus restrictions on the size of the military, type of equipment and use, etc - for the right to be unified and to become a full sovereign state again (not answering to another country). It was not called a peace treaty due to outstanding reparation issue – in particular Greece who are have always stated that the reparation they received was not enough and considered only a down payment. The effects of the war goes on!

The new West German Government in 1949 had asked for the termination of the State of War but due to the legalities of an occupying army this did not happen until 1951 after agreement had been made about the stationing of troops in Germany after the withdrawal of the Occupation Army. Furthermore, under a State of War for America and allied Countries, anyone liaising or doing business with the Germans could’ve been charged with collaboration with the enemy so it was to everyone’s interest that the state of war was terminated.

Now that I’ve established the status of POW’s under the Geneva Convention and the link to the State of War, it should be noted that most of the POW’s where not withheld until 1951 – even Russia had repatriated the majority of German POW’s by 1949 and the remainder by 1953 – except those convicted of war crimes (reportedly some 85000) many on very flimsy reasons of which that last were released in 1956 – ala the famous Luftwaffe expert Erich Hartmann.

The treatment of the POW’s varied with some countries like America following the Geneva Convention and paid the German POWs for their work. Under the Convention Officers cannot be forced to work but can volunteer while other ranks can be forced to work in areas not directly related to the war effort or dangerous (in munition factories or mines etc.) thus many were employed in the agriculture field. However, many Countries did not follow the Convention. At one point, the Americans stopped sending POWs to France for work until the French improved conditions in accordance to the Geneva Convention. Many countries tried to get around the Geneva Convention by classifying Prisoners as “Disarmed Enemy Forces” - DEF’s not POW’s – particularly those taken Prisoner at the cessation of Hostility thus considered not subject to the Geneva Convention and used in forced labour with little or no pay in dangerous conditions thus the term “Slave Labour” arose with respect to the use of these POWs – an act that was considered illegal with some countries eventually paying compensation for this - years after the event. The public and international outcry about using Prisoners as “Slave Labour” was inhumane and forced Governments to Act. As Laurent stated Britain started patriating POWs in 1946 – this was after a petition was sent to the British parliament in August 1946 which prompted the British to start repatriating 15000 POWs per month which was completed in 1948. Thus, most Prisoners were repatriated by 1949 and the addressing of the issue in the 1949 Geneva Convention. Those that were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention remember their time fondly, those that weren’t remember time’s of fear and death. Your point about the mass of prisoners being repatriated all at once makes sense but is not exactly true. Allied leaders discussed the use of prisoners in forced labour after the war in the Yalta and Tehran Conferences during the war, so there never was any intention to repatriate prisoners immediately at the end of hostilities. They were always going to use them as much as they could.

Anyway, as Laurent stated the State of War with Germany existed until 1950-51 for Western Allies and 1956 for Russia, thus technically the war did not end until then. The State of War with Japan was just as messy, with most countries signing a peace agreement in San Francisco in 1951 – with China in civil war, the Governments of Communist China or the Republic of China were not invited. Russia protesting the non-inclusion of Communist China and withdrew from the treaty and eventually signed a Joint Declaration with Japan in 1956 which was effectively a peace treaty and recognising Japan back in the diplomatic community - which by the way also included a clause on the exchange of the remaining POWs. Japan signed a peace treaty with the remnants of the Republic of China now based in Taiwan in 1958, which created tension with Communist China who protested saying they were the one and only true Government of China. No form of a peace treaty was signed until a friendship agreement was signed in 1978. Many people forget the Pacific war when speaking of WWII.

So, when did the war officially end 1945, 1951, 1956, 1978 or 1990? To me, it’s just like in WWI which technically did not end on Armistice Day on 11 November 1918, or the actual signing of the Armistice on 28 June 1919 but actually ended with the signing of the Peace treaty on 15 January 1920 - but everyone (and General history) states that the war was over on the 11 November 1918 with the cessation of fighting. The same can be said for WWII, the war in Europe ended on VE day and in the Pacific the war ended on VJ day – that is what people will remember – not Truman declaration of 1951 or the numerous other agreements.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: Me410 14/KG2 20th December 1943
 

guys: this has lasted long enough. It is also way off subject.
Take it elsewhere.

locking the thread.