Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

A mystery! No record of Luftwaffe action!

Extract from a merchant navy sailor's diary during Convoy PQ3 November 1941

"November 20th. Full gale. Two ships turned back — one hit a small berg and the other had engine trouble. One of the tanks in our 'tween deck broke loose and charged into the ships side flattening the angle irons. Bosun and crew got aboard the charging monster and shored it up with bauljks of timber. (Ship was eventually awarded the OBE for this act of bravery).
November 22nd. Crossed Arctic Circle. Course for 75 N. I believe. Stukas divebombed the convoy. The flutes under the wings gave a banshee wail and every seventh shell was a tracer so when one of the gunners on the port wing Oerlikon was hit by a tracer it cauterised the wound and he survived the rough handling when the skipper ordered "that corpse off the bridge" I put him in the shelter of the wheelhouse which was re-inforced with concrete slabs) and took over the gun for a few exciting seconds. We were in the vicinity of Jan Meyen island at the extremity of the Stuka's range so it was a short lived raid. They lost two planes and the crew were dead when picked up. Temp. 40 below.
November 26th. Broke radio silence to get instructions from Admiralty to rendezvous with the Cruiser KENYA and three destroyers who depth charged the North cape to Bear Island."

Hopefully someone has an answer!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

PS to the above:

Did the Stuka have sufficient range to fly to the area of Jan Mayen island, attack shipping and return to a base (Banak?) on the north Norwegian coast? Or do we think that the author of the diary, like many other seamen, referred to all attacking bombers as Stukas, and that the attacker may have been a recce Ju88?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

The Ju 88 was also a Stuka (Sturz-Kampfflugzeug) and both Ju 87 and Ju 88 Dive bombers were employed off North Norway in this period. Some Ju 88 A-5 Recce ones retained Dive Brakes but many had them removed.
No known Ju 88 losses in this area on 21., 22. and 23.
My opinion on this text be in error, as I have not found any primary reference to such an action (Your manuscript is partly covering my area of interest)

Your answer is on Wikipedia, because that day was Convoys day of arrival in Russia.
So at least the day is wrong - Convoy had passed Jan Mayen many days before.

Convoy PQ-3 was the fourth of the Arctic Convoys of World War II by which the Western Allies supplied material aid to the Soviet Union in its fight with Nazi Germany. The Convoy sailed from Hvalfjord, Iceland on 9 November 1941 and arrived at Archangelsk on 22 November 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_PQ_3

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Thanks Ed

My slip-up - Convoy PQ4 (not PQ3). The diary does not state which convoy or name of ship - only the date of the action)

Nevertheless, the mystery remains.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Same answer re Ju 88´s.

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Hello Brian, happy new year

Go to the forum at http://warsailors.com/forum/list.php?1 and I am sure someone will be able to identify the involved ship, and maybe give more details about this possible attack.

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Notwithstanding which convoy it was, as Ed says there were no losses around that span of dates. Such wild claims are commonplace-I was asked by Britain at War to identify the German bomber and 2 fighters shot down by a gunner on a merchant ship off Ireland in Nov 41. Well beyond the range of German fighters & there were no losses apart from those already credited to other causes

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Hi Chris, Laurent and Ed,

I was aware that the relevant Luftwaffe records show no losses of aircraft or personnel.

I was endeavouring to establish whether Ju87s had the range to attack shipping off Jan Mayen Island, or more likely that a reconnaissance Ju88 carried out the attack, which wounded a gunner aboard the ship - which I now believe was the SS Dan-Y-Bryn.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Brian being realistic, the Ju 87 was a tactical not strategic bomber & looking at the distances involved no

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

I belive Ju 87s only were employed from North-Norway and to Murmansk area, mostly land targets. Possibly shipping too but very few are totally missing and none on dates 21, 22, 23.11 of 1941. Losses for all these were compiled by member here Björn Hafsten for their Norwegian Aviation History Society publication in about early 1990s.
Copies of these are in my boxes, and ATM out of reach. I have these also entered in my Ju 87 File (and I have triplicate copies of the original GQM records too) but none appears match this story.

I think it might be "borrowed" and re-cycled

Have you not asked this before?

So you need now go to TNA and find the Convoy Reports for this period and the maps drawn out for all combats and manouvers of the escorting ships. I saw some of these there on transparent paper back in early 1990s (Admiralty files). You do know about the large tactical maps plotted out in pen and ink ?

Ed

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Convoy PQ-4 consisted of eight merchant ships and they all reached North Russia after encountering heavy weather, but no enemy action. Also, it was the cruiser HMS BERWICK that escorted the convoy to Archangel and not HMS KENYA. Furthermore I'm not aware of any enemy attacks on the PQ/QP convoy series before PQ-7A in January 1942.

I also believe that the text was written by a seaman aboard the British freighter DAN-Y-BRYN. However, it seems to have been written from memories after the war as the details don't fit a certain convoy and probably describe events from different voyages. DAN-Y-BRYN made the Murmansk run four times: arrived in PQ-4 and returned in QP-4, arrived in PQ-14 and returned in QP-11, arrived in PQ-18 and returned in QP-15, arrived in JW-52 and returned in RA-53.

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Brian,

To add to Rainers information please see Arnold Hague Convoy Database -http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/pq/index.html

Please see attached an extract from there relating to the convoys mentioned by Rainer.

PQ-18 and QP-15 had a CAM ship included.

Multiple sinkings of PQ-18 ships attributed to aircraft.

Can I also draw your attention to the following link - http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/it...ect/1030011628 - "Ms diary (7pp) kept by a DEMS gunner serving on the SS DAN-Y-BRYN during the passage of convoy PQ18 to North Russia, 12 - 17 September 1942, and describing in particular the intense air attacks on the convoy on 13 and 14 September, the loss of other merchant ships from air or U-boat attack, successes against enemy aircraft and the DAN-Y-BRYN's narrow escapes; together with a telegram to his girlfriend announcing his safe arrival in Russia, other mementoes of his time in Russia, including tickets, stamps, banknotes and a coin, his completed account of wages covering his service on the DAN-Y-BRYN from July - December 1942, and some contemporary presscuttings about convoy PQ18."

Also from http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?p=158750

"Originally Posted by John Gurton
Trevor,
My father sailed as AB on the Dan y Bryn during the war. I have a photo somehwere in the house and will endeavour to find and copy it ( be patient though !). The date on the back showed that it was taken a few days after he joined, That voyage was JW 52 to Murmansk and back in convoy RA 53. He had many tales of that voyage including the Stukas attacking in the port. I guess I'm lucky to be here ! I have seen a later pic of her I think it was on the fotoflite web page?
Rgds
John"

Note this ship also sailed in other convoys e.g. HX150 Halifax - Liverpool Sep 1941. See the following search for a full listing - https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=si...DJrmgAbmt6KQDw

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Hi Andy
Nice to hear from you again. I have referenced all those links mentioned apart from the IWM one, which is not available online.

As a Luftwaffe recce expert, do you have any knowledge of Ju88 flights by (F)20 or (F)124 on 22 November 1941 that may be relevant?

The mystery continues!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Brian,
as said. Nothing yet this day in Jan Mayen area.

4 a/c 1.(F)/120 (Stavanger) to Faroes and Scotland. Dropped bombs in Fareoes and scotland. Clam factory and marshalling yards.
No shipping mentionerd. No codes mentioned.

4 a/c III/KG 30 (Melun) bombing shipping and other targets, E- Anglian coast. Harwich & Lowestoft : 4D+DS, 4D+GS, 4D+IS mentioned.

Unit 1.(F)/124 not mentioned.
Other units: none in middle to high North.

TNA HW 13 / 97 - CX/MSS/SALU 293 (daily)

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

Brian,

Sorry, nothing from me regarding recce activity. I'm afraid I just don't have anything much on those units.

Ed,

re TNA HW 13 / 95 (or there abouts) CX/MSS/SALU 293 (daily)

On checking TNA database I think that this may be the file

HW13/97 Daily reports on GAF bomber and reconnaissance activity
Date: 1941 Oct 7-1941 Dec 20
Former reference in its original department: CX/MSS/SALU 171-321

Sorry cannot be more help.

Re: Stukas (? Ju88s) shot down 22/11/41???
 

ah, Ok. will correct.