Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Dear all,

Who can confirm that Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 was wrecked on landing at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941 at 17.55 hrs following a short flight in the airfield’s circuit ('Platzflug'), due to a failure of the hydraulics?

Cheers and thanks for any info,

Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi Theo

WNr. 0385 was a Ju88 A-1/F, 4U + MH, from 1.(F)/AGr.123, which was lost on 30.09.40 over the brit. Channel after an air fight with Hurricanes from 87 Sqd./RAF.

In your period I can't find a loss from I/NJG 2.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi Theo and JoMe,

in the Gen.Qu. loss report from 2 October 1940 No.1 is listed:
30.9. 1.(F)/123 Feindflug Ort und Ursache: unbekannt
Ju 88 A-1 0389 4U+MH 100%
Lt Walter Frenzel vermisst
Fw Waak vermisst
Uffz Eßmann vermisst
Uffz Obermayer vermisst.

Ergänzung/addition from 5 October 1940 c):
Berichtige Werknummer in 385.

Berichtigung/correction from 5 November 1940 o):
Fw Waack, Uffz Essmann gefallen. Streiche 2 Vermisste, setze 2 Tote.

Berichtigung/correction from26 June 1941 rr):
Uffz Obermayer gefallen. Streiche: 1 Vermissten. Setze: 1 Toten.

Regards
Leo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hello Theo,

Where hv found these data ???

Rémi

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Thanks chaps for your interesting replies.

Reason for asking is a photo that has recently turned up showing a Ju88 belonging to 2./NJG2 coded R4+NK, with canvas cockpit & engine covers bearing the W.Nr. 0385. I've found an entry in the Flugbuch of Ofw. Schmid of the 2. Staffel that R4+NK was wrecked on landing at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941 at 17.55 hrs following a short flight in the airfield’s circuit ('Platzflug'), due to a failure of the hydraulics. The entry in the FB clearly states: 'Bruch'.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Perhaps the GQM update from WNr 0389 to 0385 was wrong? Anyone have anything else on 0389?

Seems a bit unlikely to me that canvas covers should be sent from the Recce unit to NJG 2.

This is not the only problem with converted Ju 88 As. When checking in Balss two volumes many other problems from 1940-41 turn up.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

.. I've had another close look at the W.Nr. on the canvas cover, it could perhaps also be 0335 or 0365. What is known about these Ju88 W.Nrs.?

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

WNr. 0389 was lost by 1.(F)/121 on 23.10.41 over Greece.

Could the number at the canvas be 0365?
That aircraft was given by 1./NJG 2 to 2. Staffel in November 1940 and was lost by I./NJG 2 in a crashlanding at Kastelli on 31.05.42.

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Thanks Gerhard

Rules out WNr 0389....
With regard to Wnr 0335 it was reported shot down over Britain 13/14.6.1941, so unlikely, but its canvas cover would still have been left behind....

Looking at WNr 0365 it could work depending how much damage there is in your photo (flugbuch). It should after all be repairable. So it is up to you Theo to determin that. :)

To be frank, the canvas cover may also have been used to cover up a completely different aircraft....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

I see error here (in my view). Bruch does not needleesly be translated Wrecked (i.e. total loss = 80% damage or more). Small accidents under 10% cost of new airframe value were not recorded in losses. An Bruch in a logbook should therefore be treated with caution, here hydrilic failed (partial retraction or one wheel not completely down?) -Most probably just a belly landing resaulting or one wheel collapsed after landing. Munchen-Riem was takeoff point for south front, so can have been just repaired instantly - Ju 88 C-4 R4+NK was 0559 damaged 25% in November 41 in Greece.

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

I eventually came round to translating »Bruch« as the old RAF slang term "prang" which covered just about any degree of damage.

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Gentlemen -thanks a lot for your useful feedback. The numerals 03(.)5 are clearly decipherable in the photo, the third numeral definitely is not a 5. I believed now that the third numeral is a 6 -which identifies the a/c as the one identified by Gerhard. Was W.Nr. 0365 definitely an A-4? The Verlustmeldung for this a.c on 31.5.42 only states '30% damaged' -was the Ju88 written off strength as a result?

BTW; the photo will be published in one of the upcoming vols in the NCA series sometime towards the end of this year, covering the Fernnachtjagd operations over Britain in 1940-41.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi Theo,

Gen.Qu. loss report from 17 June 1942 No. 13:
31.5. I./NJG 2 H, category 23: beschädigt bei Ausbildungs- und sonstigem Flug ohne Feindauftrag (= damaged without enemy action on a non-operational flight) Ort: Fl.Pl. Castelli Ursache: Bruchlandung
Ju 88 A-4 365 30% Er (= Ersatz erforderlich/need for a replacement aircraft).

Regards
Leo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Ha, totally confused now. And who was talking of Ju 88 A-4 (C-4 was basically A-5 F, ie Zerstörer conversion with recce capability). Besides photo has traces of White (MTO) band applied under K, so how this connects to UK operations is beyond my comprehension? I have seen this eBay photo and its saved under 0559.

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Thanks Leo for these interesting additional details.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

No need to be confused Ed -the W.Nr. of the Ju88 in question is definitely not 0559, I've a high res scan of the original.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

I see, you ignore the White band then?

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

No (traces of) a white band visible in the photo that I have ..

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hello Theo,

From my database:
0305 > no entries
0315 > no entries
0325 > no entries
0335 > 4./NJG 2 (R4+AM), 13/14 June 1941, lost near Kings Lynn (UK), 3 KIA
0345 > 4./NJG 2 (R4+BM), 17/18 April 1941, ZO Tynemouth (UK), 3 KIA
0355 > Erg.St./NJG 2, 26/27 June 1942, FlH.Venlo, crashlanded, 15%
0365 > I./NJG 2, 31 May 1942, FlH.Kastelli, crashlanded, 30%
0375 > I./NJG 2, 2 March 1941, FlH.Gilze-Rijen, crashlanded, 15%
> I./NJG 2, 13 August 1941, FlH.Gilze-Rijen, damaged taxiing, 40%
> 9./NJG 2, 9 July 1942, FlH.Greifswald, crashlanded, 25%
0385 > III./KG 30, Stkz. FD+HT, 30 December 1942, near Schiaramonte, crashed, 4 KIA, 100%
0395 > no entries

All the best, Marcel

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi Marcel,

Thanks for sharing these details from your database, much appreciated!

Cheers, Theo

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi Gerhard

Your comment is very interesting.
The WNr.0365 from 31. May 1942 was reported as Ju 88 A-4 !
I have believed, that the right WNr. was 140365, but this plane was produced later in Sept. 1942.
For this reason, I believe that is a spelling error (A = C).

best wishes
JoMe

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hi

0305 = Ju 88 A-5, 3/LG 1, +31.01.41 b. Klosterneuburg/A (near Wien), forced landing because engine-trouble
0315 = Ju 88 A-5, 08-12.08.42 (Ju-Rep.-werft Leipzig)
0325 = Ju 88 A-5, FFS C 7, 09.41 (Finsterwalde)
0385 = Ju 88 A-4 / 140385
0395 no entry

JoMe

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Marcel/Leo

From your various statements, we have one serious clash, WNr 0385.

Marcel

Which is your source to link this loss with III./KG 30? If the GQM is to be believed, 0385 was long gone and III./KG 30 is a bit unlikely to have operated a C-4. Are you sure it is not one of the sixdigit WNrs in a short form?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss Ju88 C-4 R4+NK W.Nr. 0385 of 2./NJG2 at München-Riem airfield on 28 September 1941?
 

Hello Stig,

The source was microfilm reel 8 of the Gen.Qm.Abt.6 ObdL but I have no idea when/why I did store this information because I never systematically put all Ju88 references in this database which contains mainly nightfighters.

As the type is a Ju88A-4, another mispelling seems unlikely and 0385 is possibly the 4-digit last part of the 6-digit Werkenummer.

#Jome: thanks for the additional entries.

Best regards, Marcel