Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I'm a passionate collector of top-aces-by-plane.
However, some aircraft did not manage to get included in my collection.
The following aircraft had top pilots who did not achieve 5 or more kills in that aircraft for the various reason indicated:

• Blackburn Skua: William Lucy, 3,33 [0+7sh] kills
• Bristol Blenheim: Reginald Peacock, 3,67 [3+2sh] kills
• Cant Z.506: Pietro Bonannini, at least 5 kills as gunner
• Dornier Do 24: Günther Weisshuhn, 13 (dubious)
• Fairey Firefly: John Stott, 3,5 [2+3sh] kills
• Gloster Sea Gladiator: Charles Keighly-Peach, 3,5 [3+1sh] + 1 probable
• Grumman Avenger: Charles Henderson, 4 + 1 probable
• Hawker Sea Hurricane: Rupert Brabner, 4,5 [4+1sh] and Richard Cork, 4,25 [4+1sh]
• Kawasaki Ki-100: Jiro Asano, 3-10 kills
• Mitsubishi F1M: Masaji Nioshiwaki, 3-5 kills
• Polikarpov I-15bis: Georgi Agafonov, Pjotr Bityutski, Vassili Yefremov, Aleksandr Mironenko und Pjotr Petrov variously pronounced aces of that type, not valid according to Mikhail Bykov, Liu Shi-Sheng 3+7sh kills adding up to a value of less than 5
• Reggiane Re.2000: Imre Panczel, 4-5
• Reggiane Re.2005: Vittorio Minguzzi 3,08 [2+4sh] and Giulio Torresi 4+3sh
• Supermarine Seafire: Richard Reynolds, 3,5 [2+3sh]
• Vickers Wellington: John Robertson, 12 as gunner (dubious)

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good morning,

I have to add the Lockheed Ventura.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51252

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

...who's the Westland Whirlwind top scorer ?

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

I wonder who was the top scoring German pilot of Arado Ar-196 floatplane. The Ar-196 had seen plenty of air to air combat during WWII.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Hello Edward,

oh that would be interesting.
You think the Ar 196 has shot something down ?

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

see the personal account "Eine Arado Ar 196 gegen zehn Spitfire" by a Hptm Wiegmink of 1./196 in " Bordflieger im Einsatz "

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Sounds interesting.
I'll try to find that article.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Gentlemen,

Well the Arado Ar-196s had in the past during WWII shot down plenty of twin-engined British Beaufighters in the North Sea,Atlantic,Aegean Sea,and elsewhere. I remember reading about a Ar-196 floatplane from the German heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen that had shot a Beaufighter in 1943. I don't what other Allied warplanes that were shot down by Ar-196s but I like to find out pretty soon!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Excuse me I meant to say that the Beaufighter was shot down (destroyed) by one of Prinz Eugen's Ar-196 floatplanes.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Hello Edward,

that's astonishing because a Beaufighter is more pugnacious than an Ar 196, isn't it ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Dear Michael,

Try looking at FalkEins and you will find some more information about the Arado Ar-196 being used in combat.
Brief Example from FalkEins:"..a bold feat of arms by our Arado crews-an Arado 196 recce Staffel on Crete claim four Beaufighters shot down."
Unfortunately as I said before,no information on who were to top-scoring pilots of the Arado Ar-196s. If there would be a few aces,great.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Here's another one, though a probable:

According to the book 'Vliegvelden in Oorlogstijd' an Ar 196 crew was credited with a Stirling victory on the 1st of July 1941.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Hello Edward,

FalkeEins reveals at least one Arado Ar 196 scorer: Günther Kurth.
https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/search/label/Arado%20196

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

The venerable Henschel Hs 129 also scored a number of "kills" in East, including by those flown by Rumanian pilots.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good evening dear Dénes Bernád,

cool. Who's the top scorer ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

I would not venture to declare the winner, as I didn't sum up (yet) the victories I know about. Perhaps Martin Pegg's new book will give you the answer.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Have a look at the price:
https://www.amazon.de/Hs-129-Panzerj...gateway&sr=8-3

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Pegg just published a revised edition of his book. Check out the Books sub-forum.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Brian Cull's book "Fighters over the Aegean" has a number of incidences recorded of combat between Beaufighters and Arado 196's. The Arados were successful on quite a few occasions.
I am aware also that the Arados also caused some concern to RAF Coastal Command Whitleys and a RN Submarine (HMS Seal).


...geoff

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

I suppose the Beaufighters were torpedo bombers ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Not generally torpedo bombers, from memory they were RAF or SAAF Beaufighters on coastal patrol, fighter sweep or bomb/rocket strike.


...geoff

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

This seems to be a bold deed, as the Beaufighter is much faster and more heavily armed than the Arado Ar 196.

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Beaufighter losses to Ar196 (Appendix I - Fighters over the Aegean):

17-Sep-43 252 Sqn V8335

29-Oct-43 47 Sqn JM225

6-Nov-43 47 Sqn LX998

27-Jan-44 603 Sqn LZ144

22-Feb-44 227 Sqn X8103

1-Jun-44 227 Sqn JM235

1-Jun-44 603 Sqn LZ517 (shared with flak)

1-Jun-44 16SAAF NE641

17-Jun-44 16SAAF NExxx (shared with flak)

Here's an oddity for you - a Beaufighter shot down from return fire of a Ju52:
30-Aug-44 603 Sqn NV213

If you compare straight performance statistics between Beaufighter and Ar196, the Beau wins hands down. However, remember that combat is not a comparison sheet. The Beau has good low-level speed, but in a shipping srtike wouldn't be going flat-out top speed on the way in to target. Down low, the Arado was very nimble. If the Arado takes the Beau by surprise or the Beau's crew is over-confident and underestimates the floatplane result is not so sure. As for the benefits of the Beau's heavy armament....well RAF crews were supposed to be lousy shots in general. Air-to-air marksmanship was not as heavily drilled in the Commonwealth as for the USN/USMC or USAAF training.


...geoff

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good evening Geoff,

that's a cool list.
Do you know any of the claimants ?

I wish you a good Saturday,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Michael,

Given that men died in some of those aircraft, I'm not sure "cool list" is an appropriate way to describe it.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Yes,


It's slightly sickening to view it all that way.

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Gentlemen,
We are all discussing items on a Historic Combat Aircraft website. In all probability, men have been lost in action in almost all of the posts we share information on. It is appropriate that we acknowledge this in passing - to ourselves, if to no one else.

However, it is perhaps less appropriate to jump down someone's throat for the use of a phrase - the word "cool" specifically - without considering the intent of the usage or the level of English-writing experience. I - as the intended recipient of that phrase - am happy to read it's use as a statement of gratitude for my efforts in bothering to compile the list.

Yes, in reading and compiling that list, I am well aware and here-acknowledge the loss in action of roughly 50% of the Allied aircrews on the list - and also of a much higher percentage of loss of the Arado crews, including a number of likely claimants.

Isn't that the reason we discuss these threads? To compile lists and facts for our enjoyment and to remember those that were lost..... "lest we forget".


With humility,

...geoff

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good morning Geoff,

you right. Thanks again for sharing.
It's the longest list of it's kind, isn't it ?

Have a good Sunday,

Michael

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

...by courtesy of stukapilot I found this website:
https://hubpages.com/education/Ar-196

Re: Aircraft that did not quite produce a full top ace
 

Good afternoon,

currently, I'm reading "Sunderland Squadrons of World War 2" by Jon Lake. Intriguingly, the Sunderland crew of Frank Phillips shot down a Junkers Ju 88 on 3Apr1940 and 'convinced' 11 more to retreat. Furthermore, the Sunderland crew of Hugh Birch set alight a Messerschmitt Bf 110 on 15Jul1940 and drove off 4 more.

Colin Walker and his crew even scored 3 destroyed and 2 damaged in a dramatic fight on 2Jun1943:
http://aircrewremembered.com/walker-colin.html

The most highly decorated Sunderland pilot is Les Baveystock DSO DFC DFM who destroyed two submarines.

Have a good weekend,

Michael