Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hello everybody!

Back in 2010, Marc Andre Haldimann posted a thread containing excellent pics of Bf109ks.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...&highlight=262

Apparently these pics were taken in Vilseck, Germany, June 1945. One of these pics shows the fuselage of an Me 262 painted in a wave-mirror camo (aka wellenmuster). A tantalizing glimpse of the wings’ uppersurface is also visible.

As far as I’m aware, no one has been able to identify this machine in terms of its unit or wr.nr. I’ve cropped the photo and included some annotations to highlight a few notable features of this Me 262. I’ve also attached the original, uncropped (as I found it from the thread) pic without annotations. I’d love to know anyone’s thoughts regarding any aspect of this kite.

It looks like the Me 262 in the background is from Kg 51 or kg54(j). It’s code has the letters KN. Since N indicates the 5th staffel, I believe it’s from the II Gruppe 5th Staffel. I’m not sure that that Me 262’s identity helps us confirm the identity of the one in the foreground, but it’s probably worth considering.
Regarding the Me 262 with the wave-mirror camo in the foreground, it looks like it might have a bomber code (kg 51 or Kg 54?). It also looks like the letter “L” might be visible, or is that a part of the balkenkreuz? If it’s the balkenkreuz, the proportions seem odd. There also seems to be a small rectangular port (or something) above the nose camera port. What do you all think? Is there anything here that strikes you?

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

The forward edge of the Balkenkreuz would be at (near) the forward edge of the hatch. So an "L" is likely.
Richard

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

an Me262 with a "K" is behind in the background...so this can only be an "L", base on location and size.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Based on the aircraft around, the 262's color appears to be 76 perhaps, with 75 on the wings and the wave pattern. Or is the light color a light grey as been seen on some 109 Ks?

The code does appear to be"L"

https://s6.postimg.org/l0ivh8a8h/Me_262_original.jpg

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

I thought the bomber Me262s had 2 of their cannons removed. Am I mistaken?

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

It appears to have the two upper cannon removed. And given that outline on the upper port, perhaps it was once faired over.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

The type of camouflage is typical for KG 51 in the 2nd half of 1944.

The upper two canons needed to be removed only in aircraft produced until sometimes late 1944. Later fighter bomber versions had all 4 canons plus the required bomb carriers and electrical equipment. As far as I remember (haven't access to my Messerschmitt documents right now), it was due to center of gravity and weight reasons. Later Me 262 had the additional fuel tank behind the cockpit after the landing gear had been strenghtened. With the additional fuel tank, the center of gravity was moved backwards again and all 4 canons could be installed.

Since this machine appears to have had only 2 canons and the camouflage pattern is similar to other Me 262s of KG 51 in fall 1944, I'd say it is a KG 51 aircraft produced in 1944.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Gentlemen,

Am I missing something? To my mind, a yellow K and a black N do not compute. The 5th staffel of a bomber unit should have a red letter. May I suggest that the final letter is a V?
This would make it the 11th staffel which in a bomber gruppe would still be red. However, with the change to four-staffel gruppes of the fighter geschwaders in November 1944, the colour of the 11th staffel became yellow and it was in the III gruppe! This aircraft may belong to a KG(J).

Jim

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

This from ULTRA may relate to the aircraft in the background:

At 05.00 on 10 March, Obltn. WALTER (TO) was advised by Prüfmeister Wasserschläver of 5./KG 51 that 110590, KL was one of five aircraft that could not be repaired owing to a lack spare parts (wing, jet units, nose tips).

Also, re LL:

CX/MSS/T498/52
… ((2)) To KABUS (( (Roman) I/KG)) 51, Hopsten from Obpfr. Plattner, stamped 2345/19/3:
Strength return of 19/3:
BB, HH, LL, ML, IL, AK, LK serviceable.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

I don't believe the letter after the "K" on the 262 in the back is even legible. I would submit that the individual aircraft letter "K" is yellow and the "L" is white.

https://s6.postimg.org/egg3ax6i9/Me_262_sm.jpg

https://s6.postimg.org/70gtp4qip/Me_262_sm_invert.jpg

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Wonderful to see a "new" photo of 262's!

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Gents,

Regarding the aircraft in the image:

9K+KL / 110590: Certainly a KG 51 aircraft as they most commonly painted the fourth letter of their aircrafts’ v-kenn. in 20 cm high letters. KG(J) 54’s machines had the last two letters the same size and larger (~60 cm high). I agree that if the last letter was “L”, then the “K” would be yellow (3. Staffel). Presumably 5.KG 51 was accurately reporting this aircraft’s identity “KL”. It could have been an aircraft that was being transferred to the unit, coming in for repairs, in transit, etc. Also, the camouflage scheme fits well with other machines in the 1105xx and lower 1106xx series (lots of KG(J) 54 examples).

Uncoded. I agree this is likely a KG 51 aircraft too, but sadly no code was applied. Its base camouflage pattern is similar to the similarly uncoded aircraft WNr.110506, captured by Canadian troops at Deipolz or Nordholz, Germany in a dismantled state. Its base colour was very light, interpreted as RLM 76, with a thick meandering mottle of a dark colour, probably RLM 81. The scheme on the wings was applied in a much denser manner and in tight, small, individual swirls. The aircraft above appears to have a base coat of RLM 82 and irregular, widely spaced and unconnected wavy lines of RLM 81. However, what is really interesting is the application of RLM 76 is tadpole-shaped blobs over the entire fuselage surface, somewhat Picasso-esque. The wing looks to be RLM 82 and segmented patches of RLM 76.

Cheers,

David

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Thank you David and everyone for your comments! :) Just for clarification, to which aircraft does the fascinating description in quotes refer? I'm not sure which is the "aircraft above." Is there another photo that shows this?

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hi everyone,

I got some information which might be linked to the discussed topic.
in April 1945 the "Flugerprobungsstelle" (Flight test site) in Gütersloh was evacuated and moved to Cham which is about 40 km from Vilseck.
Before that, in December 44 they ordered some Me 262 for further evalutions with the device 8-344 "Ruhrstahl X-4". Three Me 262 (Werk-Nr. *271, (500)248 and (500)259, only the last three digits given) were recieved between 19th and 25th of march.
One reason why I'm thinking both stories maybe linked is a post-war handwritten entry on one of the acceptance confimations for Werk-Nr. 248.
Unfortunately it's really hard to read. Maybe some of you have a clue what was written there. "Loading Slips ??? VILSECK A/? FROM ??? ??? fuselages ???...

Beside the Me 262 the following aircraft were evacuated to Cham.
FW 190 181651, FW 190 D-9 210034, Me 109 K-4 330454.
It's evident that those aircraft actually reached Cham airfield, but never the 262s. (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...appach&page=11 Post#104)

I'm speculating that the Me262s were brought to Vilseck since Cham wasn't able to handle that type of aircraft. One of those Me 262 is shown in the photo above. The bulge above the camera port has something to do with thesting the devices "dogge" and "puddel" on the Ruhrstahl X-4.
A feasable interpretation or complete nonsense?

Best regards

Matthias

Attachment 16333

Attachment 16334

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hi Matthias,

Thank you for sharing this highly interesting information. I've never seen such Abnahme-Karten before for the Me 262.

I think I can decipher a bit more:

LOADING SLIPS
FROM VILSECK A/B [for Air Base or possibly also A/D for Air Drome]
FROM ???
CENTRAL FUSELAGES
???

So, did I understand it correctly that also FW 190 181651, FW 190 D-9 210034, Me 109 K-4 330454 were with the Flugerprobungsstelle Gütersloh? Do you know for what purpose?

I couldn't find the bulge above the camera port you mentioned. The two fuselages don't have any camera ports as they are fighter bomber versions. Or were you not referring to the Me 262 fuselages?

Best regards,

Roger

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hi Roger,

Thanks for adding some more words to the hyroglyphs!

as mentioned in the first post, the tip of the nose cone of the Me 262 in the foreground seem to have a special shape right above the opening for the combat camera. "There also seems to be a small rectangular port (or something) above the nose camera port". I would say it looks like a small bulge. But I'm really not sure about that, could be imagination.

Sure, the FW190s were used for tests with a new "Zech-Wolf"-Propeller ??? . The K4 was used for VDM blade testing. Not described in more detail.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

....
LOADING SLIPS
FROM VILSECK A/B
FROM ?apparently?
CENTRAL FUSELAGES
...

Regards, Karl

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Gents,

This is a fascinating discussion on a very strange-looking Me 262. I long thought the lighter-coloured aircraft could be 9K+we.LH of 1./KG 51 based on its unit markings style, and assumed the “L” was white. I interpreted the washed-out letter “K” for 9K+KL as yellow, and so the lighter “L” as white. Presuming that Nick’s Ultra document is accurate, one must conclude the machine is 9K+ge.LL of 3./KG 51. But what Werknummer?

Going over the above information from Nick and Matthias, there exist possible matches of the last three digits with known production series Werknummer groups and their ranges (110xxx, 111xxx, 112xxx, 113xxx, 130xxx, 170xxx, 500xxx and 501xxx) as published in Dan O’Connell’s Classic publication:

WNr.??? 248

• 500248 was assembled at Mtt. Regensburg-Obertraubling but nothing is known of it after that. Most probably this is the werknummer number of one of the three machines, with the camouflage and markings pattern of 9K+KL matching that of photos of closely produced aircraft.

WNr.??? 259

• 500259 is identified as a Me 262 A-1a converted to a U3 variant in early March 1945 at Eger. It was delivered to 1./NAG 6 at Lechfeld and shot down on April 5, 1945. Could Matthias’ and Dan’s information be drawn from documents with transcription errors?

WNr.??? 271

• 170271: Valid, but not indicated in the listings. Nothing is known.
• 500271: Valid, but not indicated in the listings. Nothing is known.

In addition to the 500000 series, in the latter half of 1944 2./KG 51 had a significant number of machines from the 170099 to 170295 werknummer series. Extant photos of some of these in the late spring and early summer of 1944 show modifications of the their factory-applied grey RLM 74/75 camouflage schemes with heavy applications of a dark colour (probably green) in irregular snaking lines. It would appear that KG 51 took matters into its own hands to improve aircraft ground concealment during this period of increasing Allied aerial dominance, with the grey scheme most unsuitable. Some examples include two 1.KG 51 machines from the 130000 werknummer series: 9K+we.UH and 9K+we.YH.

In the late summer and early autumn another non-standard camouflage scheme is observed. For example, the well photographed 1./KG 51 machine 9K+we.BH reveals a medium-coloured upper surface colour over which were applied small patches and irregular lines in a darker colour. I think that this is another unit-applied scheme applied to older aircraft using the new ‘green and brown’ colours RLM 82 hellgrün and 81 braunviolett. Other photographic examples include WNr.170093, 9K+ge.BL of 3./KG 51, and WNr.110506, the uncoded aircraft captured by the Canadian at Diepholz or Nordholz.

9K+ge.LL shares this scheme, but also has a later applied pattern of swirling patches of a light colour on the fuselage that is probably RLM 76 weissblau, and a segmented pattern in the upper wing surfaces. The former is not uncommon and is seen in photos of several KG(J) 54 Me 262s where in some cases white was used.. What this does indicate is the machine was used over the winter of 1944-45 so is possible to have been on strength with KG 51 over part of or all of this time.

Taken together, I think it is possible 9K+ge.LL could be WNr.170271. Whatever its werknummer, between March 19 1945 and late April it suffered some incident resulting is its disassembly. I welcome further discussion on this and other possible candidate werknummern

Cheers,

David

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

An expansion of my previous post (after re-reading my own web pages):

• 17.10.44: Me 262, 9K+LL, Works Number 170013, pilot Obltn. Gärtner, belonging to Detachment Edelweiss, took off on 19/9 from Rheine to operate in the Liège area.
• 08.01.45: LL, 110662 to strength, 4 x MK 108
• 10.03.45: At 05.00, Oblt. Walter (TO) was advised by Prüfmeister Wasserschläver of 5./KG 51 that 110590, KL was one of five aircraft that could not be repaired owing to a lack spare parts (wing, jet units, nose tips).
• 19.03.45: Obpfr. Plattner reported LL serviceable in a strength return at 23.45 hrs.

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Outstanding Nick!

Great to add a bit more information to the matrix.

Many thanks for sharing.

David

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Actually, 500259 most likely shot down a P51, and was NOT shot down by one.
This is the type of discussion I truly enjoy. So many little pieces start coming together to make a picture!
Thank you Masmar, and every one else; every sentence presented helps!

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Mathias, I don't believe I've seen these document types before, thank you. On Page 2, are those the last three digits of WNr on the far left side? Your interpretation of the document would be extremely helpful. Thank you!

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

If the photograph was really taken at Vilseck, you have to notice this:
In the background you can see the railway track which is leading via Weiden/Neustadt to the Mtt production site Flossenbürg/Altenhammer. There, production of the Bf109K-4 was under way and the production of the Me262 in preparation. The depicted Bf109 may be part of a batch intended for assembly at Vilseck-Heringnohe. Additionally, a Zerlegebetrieb was recycling Bf109 wrecks for re-usable parts. So why not damaged Me262s in preparation of future jet production?
The photo seems to be taken at the triangle, where the tracks supplying Vilseck-Heringnohe a/f veers from the main railway tracks Nürnberg-Weiden. Those tracks have been dismantled after the war. Obviously the aircraft parts had been stowed on stake cars and had been removed to create space for other military transports.
The train visible in the background may be the key to understand the situation. You can see military equipment - whether it´s Wehrmacht or US forces is not distinguishable.

Regards
RolandF

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hi Dan,

you're welcome. Please find enclosed the same documents for the further aircraft. In the top right corner you find the Part number (Me 609 for the Regensburg built 262), than a commision number and under that the Werk-Nr.

Page one contains some information on the technical condition. The left column on page two is the modification list. Unfortunately I dont have the matching document which might tell us what kind of modifications were undertaken for each entry. But it seems that they did a lot

Kind regards

Matthias

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Most interesting, thank you Matthias! It still amazes me that there is still so much to learn after 70 years!

Re: Me 262 identification and unusual features
 

Hey guys, so the Me 262 in the foreground appears to be w.nr. 110662 9k+LL. Very cool! However, I'm still wondering about something...even though the aircraft's individual letter (the big L) does indeed appear to be white, the staffel letter has been identified as an L. Wouldn't the second L indicate the 3rd staffel and 1 Gruppe? If so, shouldn't the individual letter be yellow rather than white? I'm just trying to make sense of the chart from http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/markings.html. I often refer to it when I'm unsure about unit markings and gruppe/ staffel colors. Thoughts?