Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

what type of aircraft was Fritz Sengschmitt
http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.n....asp?vnum=1005
flying when he claimed his 15 victories ?

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hello Michael.
Don't confuse his award list on the link you posted for a career summary.
Sengschmitt transferred from 4./KG40 to ZG1 early in 1943 and was KIA in a Bf110G-2 on 11/1/44 with ZG26. I suggest most kills would have been with the ZG.
Peter

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hello Peter,

how come Fritz Sengschmitt is not listed by Johannes Mathews ?

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Probably the same reason as your previous guy

Looking through the lists of both ZG 1 and ZG 26 known claims, he is not listed at all.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good morning Peter & Stig,

he is listed as Fritz Sengschmidt by Georg Brütting but without score.

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good evening,

why are the complete kill lists of the Zerstörer aces so hard to find ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Because people who want such a list just sit around hoping someone else will compile one?

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good Morning TigerTimon,

is this a quotation from a movie?

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

No, it's a meme. :-) Just my interpretation of the answer of Nick. Anyways, I will stop bothering you right now.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Johannes Mathews performed a herculean job when he compiled and presented the kill tables of all Luftwaffe aces. He rectified common mistakes and indicated the few cases where the lists are incomplete and open to addition of new data. It's astonishing that kills lists of the Jagdflieger aces have survived in a complete form in most cases while the lists of many Zerstörer aces have gaps. Let's presume the top Zerstörer scorer were Tratt, Albrecht, Weißenberger, Jabs, Schob, Heller, Kutscha, and Dassow. Complete lists are available for Tratt and Weißenberger but not for Albrecht, Jabs, Schob, Heller, Kutscha and (to my woe) Dassow. Is it because the Zerstörer aces or their seniors cared less for documentation ?

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

The claims lists are there on the Bundesarchiv web pages, available to download and free of charge.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Indeed, I found Dassow by the given name of Rudi:
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/main.xhtml
But unlike the files of higher ranking officers like Udet, Dassow's file doesn't seem to have been digitalized yet. I'm looking for to further things to come.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hi Michael

The ZG units are not very well represented on the earlier typed-out mikrofilm claims per unit, thus we have only the daily claims(usually start late July 1942) I can confirm that no earlier typed-out claims have come to light for both ZG1 and ZG2, and only one Gruppe each for ZG26(III) and ZG76(II), therefore nothing would be on the microfilms prior to July 1942 for your man.

I have therefore omitted him because I could not find five confirmed claims for him. Quite often ZG pilots scores included some on the ground. Remember the jabo pilot Liesendahl(JG 26 by memory), we were quoted "50" then "5", but the truth was "0", got his decorations for destroying shipping and ground targets.

Unless other mikrofilms come to light, or a abschusstafel or flugbuch(or his bordfunker) appear the only source to help you will be the early KBT papers.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Liesendahl (JG 2) was not a good fighter pilot being shot down twice with no claims but was much better as a jabo pilot. Likewise Sengschmitt. Bombers to June 1943, then limited if any intruder missions with with V./KG 2 to Aug 43 after conversion to the Me 410. Then becomes a Bf 110 day fighter pilot, joining newly formed I./ZG 26 in October 1943. Not sure when this went operational but he lasted under 3 months being killed 11 Jan 44. Little if no chance to shoot down anything

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Don't forget these:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Axel-Urba...s%2C217&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.de/Die-Ritterkreu.../dp/3941437097

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hi Michael

I checked Ernst Obermaier's Ritterkreuz book, he is very vague, but I had written underneath his biography fifteen "kills" but which front, I would say I had read somewhere his total is fifteen, but I wouldn't put too much faith in that. Obermaier also states Staffelkapitän of 2./ZG 1 from 7th April 1943, I have all this units claims after 19th July 1942, none for Sengeschmitt, moreover at this time there was a Hauptmann flying and claiming for 2./ZG 1 called Oskar Gehring, surely he was the Staffelkapitän, I think he was never with ZG1, Chris eludes to this, and I agree that Sengeschmitt had no time to make claims, well very little time, fact is I found not a single claim on the mikrofilms for him.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

If anybody would like my "all claimers" list(pilots only 7767 of them) drop me your e.mail address.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good morning Johannes,

nice you join in. Do you expect that the files in the Bundesarchiv might tell us something new about Zerstörer claims once they release them in digitalized form ?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Claims lists are already digitised and available to download.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

@Knusel, if you mean the Personalakten than that will surely take some time. I believe the many different formats of documents in it (A4, A5 and others) make it more difficult to scan.

If a Personalakte exists of an officer (I have an approx. 60% hitrate) than the number of pages can vary between 10 or 400. I have never seen claimlists but if it is a good one you will see Beurteilungen which lists their total score by a certain date. In a few cases I found a Feindflugliste.

John

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good evening John,

I have started to get acquainted with the Bundesarchiv web platform.
Currently, the Zerstörer pilot I'm most interested in is Rudi Dassow.
So far, I cannot find a link for digitalized data for him. Can you?

I wish you a pleasant new week,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

His Personalakte Pers 6/178670 is not digitalized (yet). It only consists of 27 pages and no details about his victories, except for one summary in a Beurteilung.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hello John,

I stumbled over the given name "Rudi"...wasn't his name "Rudolf" ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

A very strange question for somebody who claims to be German, Michael.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Just answer the question Nick. Your comment has little to do with the question.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Just as I (and Nick H?) have Nicholas on my birth certificate and am known as Nick, so Rudi is the informal variant of Rudolf.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Of course, but in my language nicknames are rarely used in writing and nearly never in official documents.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

All official documents I have seen list him as Rudi Dassow. I have never seen any reference to Rudolf..... I believe his name was straight forward RUDI....

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

John B,

Before I consider to answer the question, I want doubts cleared up first. I don't feel that expressing a doubt that somebody is who they say they are is particularly unreasonable especially if taking the next step of helping them involves giving away for free something that might have cost me time, effort and money to find out.

Nick B,
Quote: "Just as I (and Nick H?) have Nicholas on my birth certificate and am known as Nick."

Can confirm.

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good morning John,

that's interesting. The choice of a nickname as an official name is sometimes made by parents but not often. Therefore, some years ago several authors believed that the official name of Heinz Bär must have been Heinrich but it is Heinz indeed. The same is true for Willi Reschke. I'll note Mr Dassow down as Rudi.

I wish you a pleasant Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Hi All,
just checked the birth name Rudi.
In Germany parents named 1.300 babies Rudi between 2010 and 2022. The name is indeed very rare but definitly possible.
Rolf

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

Good evening John,

Dassow is not included in many of my books:
Toliver/Constable (1968) call him Rudolf.
Weal (1999) calls him Rudi.
Forsyth calls him Rudolf in 2011 and Rudi in 2019.

Also check out my Me 410 aces thread:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ghlight=dassow

I wish you a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

I do not care what these books say, especially the first ones. I never saw any reference to Rudolf in OFFICIAL documents. Only his birth certificate might give the final answer. But IF his name was Rudolf then I am sure it would have come up in some of the documents I have (NVM's or PA).

John

Re: Fritz Sengschmitt
 

I think the same. Clerks would not have called him Rudi if his birth name had been Rudolf.