Spitfire P7350
 

Is there anyone here who knows if and where the Spitfire P7350 served during the Battle of Britain?

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Christer,

Here is a history of P7350:
P7350 is the oldest airworthy Spitfire in the world, it is believed to be the 14th Spitfire built at Castle Bromwich on August 13 1940 and was issued to 6 MU(Brize Norton), then to 266 Sqn. at Wittering on September 6 coded UO-T. Moved to Hornchurch on October 17 for 603(County of Edinburgh) Sqn. RAuxAF, where it was in combat with Bf 109’s and was forced to crash land, the repaired bullet holes can still be seen. Delivered to 1 Civilian Repair Unit on October 31 at Cowley, Oxon. It arrived at 37 MU(Burtonwood) on December 7 for return to service. Issued to 616 (South Yorkshire) Sqn. at Tangmere on March 18 1941, followed by 64 Sqn. at Hornchurch on April 10. Then on August 5 arrived at Scottish Aviation, Prestwick for overhaul. Back to 37 MU on January 29 1942. P7350 then joined the Central Gunnery School, Sutton Bridge on April 27 staying there until it went to Air Service Training(AST) Hamble on February 2 1942 for unspecified work, on March 20 it was awaiting collection at Hamble. On March 23 it was issued to 6 MU Brize Norton. On March 31 it was on charge with 57 OTU Harwarden. On April 22 1944 while lined up on the end of the runway at Eshott another Spitfire taxied into P7350. Arrived at AST Hamble on April 30 for repairs, and was awaiting collection on July 13. On July 24 1944 it was issued to 39 MU Colerne for allocation to duties, P7350 remained in store.

Declared a non-effective airframe on July 8 1948 was sold to John Dale & Co. scrap merchants, seemingly never left RAF charge was donated back to RAF Colerne for display until March 3 1967 when it moved by road to Henlow for restoration to flying condition for the film ‘Battle of Britain’ wearing (movie)codes DO-M, it was registered on April 25 1968 as G-AWIJ to Spitfire Productions Ltd. for the film although ownership remained with the Ministry of Defence. On November 8 1968, P7350 joined the ‘Battle of Britain’ flight at Coltishall. From 1968-71 it was coded ZH-T (266 Sqn.). On January 1 1969 the flight was renamed ‘Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’. From 1972-77 it was coded UO-T (266 Sqn.), the BBMF moved to RAF Coningsby on March 1 1976. P7350 was coded QV-B (19 Sqn.) from 1978 to 1981, then SH-D (64 Sqn.) from 1982-84. On February 29 1984 the registration G-AWIJ was cancelled, P7350 was effectively only a ‘civilian’ for the filming of the ‘Battle of Britain’, but the registration remained active until this date. In 1985 it appeared at the Great Warbirds Air Display in the markings of 41 Sqn. EB-Z ‘OBSERVER CORPS.’ (the squadron codes of P7666) which it wore from 1958-88.
From 1989-90 P7350 was coded UO-T(41 Sqn.), then YT-F (65 Sqn.) from 1991-93. On March 5 1996 P7350 re-enacted the first flight of prototype K5054 over Southampton to celebrate the 60th anniversary piloted by Sqn. Ldr. Paul Day.

March 1997, P7350 having worn 72 Sqn. RN-S codes for some time will emerge after winter maintenance at RAF Coningsby in Air Sea Rescue colours(two tone grey upper surfaces and duck egg blue undersurfaces with black stripe nose to tail) of 277 Sqn. with codes BA-Y to represent P8509 ‘THE OLD LADY’.

On 3rd May 1998, at the Duxford Spitfire Airshow, P7350 was in the flypast of the formation of 16 Spitfires, it formed Yellow section with AB910, PS915 and PM631. This was the biggest formation since WWII. P7350 changed its colours in April ‘99 to those of 603 (City of Edinburgh) Sqn. coded XT-D to represent Spitfire I L1067 ‘BLUE PETER’ as flown by Sqn. Ldr. George Denholm. On Sept. 22nd ‘99 all BBMF Spitfires flew together for the first time, P7350, MK356, AB910, PS915 and PM631.

P7350 took part in the 60th Anniversary Battle of Britain Airshow on 9/10 September 2000 at Duxford with 20 Spitfires and 3 Hurricanes, it flew both days flown by Shiney Simmons, this was the first time all 5 BBMF Spitfires had displayed together. P7350 was at the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, St.Athan, South Wales for major overhaul on September 25, 2000. It is anticipated that some aircraft skin will need replacing, it will become the first BBMF Spitfire to undergo plastic media stripping to remove all traces of paint. It will remain with 603 RAuxAF Sqn. colours.

MkIIa P7350 completed an eight month overhaul and returned to RAF Coningsby in the hands of Sqn.Ldr.Paul Day on June 6, 2001. P7350 has had its frame No.5, main engine bulkhead and sub-spars replaced. Work has also been completed on renewing several skin panels close to the tail section and on one of the wings. The paint finish of the aircraft is now satin instead of gloss. It has been temporally fitted with a four-bladed propeller and will be reunited with its own three-bladed propeller on completion of overhaul at Dowty Aerospace.
On Saturday May 11, 2002 P7350 made an unusual and much appreciated night stop at the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington during the Battlegroup North Wargaming Convention, on the Saturday the Spitfire displayed with Hurricane IIc LF363 and on the Sunday the Lancaster flew across from Coningsby to join P7350 in the display.
Sunday 2nd June 2002 at the 40th Biggin Hill Jubilee Air Fair the BBMF displayed with Sqn.Ldr. ‘The Major’ Paul Day in P7350 ‘Blue Peter’, later in the day as the crowd fell silent for a minutes silence in memory of the pilots who tragically lost their lives at last years Air Fair, the BBMF performed a flypast in tribute to them.

P7350 was satisfactorily air-tested on March 14, 2003 in preparation for the new Airshow season.
During 2003 the surface of the main runway at Coningsby is to be renewed in order that the station can prepare itself for the introduction of the “Eurofighter” into Royal Air Force Squadron service. As a result, the flying operations of BBMF will move across to RAF Barkston Heath, an RAF training airfield situated about five miles south of Cranwell airfield, down the Grantham road. It is planned that the BBMF will move around the 9th-10th June 2003, P7350 and the BBMF returned back home to Coningsby from Barkston Heath on October 5, 2003.

2004 see’s the 60th Anniversary of D-Day and the BBMF will be taking part in a number of events around June 5 and 6. The Flight has changed the type of roundels worn by P7350, in a bid to make the aircraft’s paint scheme more accurate the BBMF technicians have reduced the size of the red centres on the fuselage roundels, and those on the undersides of the wings have been changed from 36in(91cm) examples to 50in(127cm) versions. The ‘Baby Spit’ has also lost its fuselage band.
The BBMF were at The Museum of Flight’s ‘Airshow 04’ on July 10 2004, they were represented by the Lancaster, Hurricane Mk.II PZ865 and P7350, the Lancaster and P7350 also took part in the Yorkshire Airshow at Elvington on the weekend of August 21st/22nd.

The ‘ Flying Legends ‘ Airshow 2005 on the 10th JULY at Duxford started at 13.40 with the BBMF Spitfire Mk.IIa P7350, Lancaster and Hurricane performing their usual routine but with a difference, the Lancaster could not open its bomb bay doors because it had 1,000,000 poppies in the bomb bay, these were due to be dropped over the Mall on the run in to Buckingham Palace at 17.00 in the VE/VJ Day Flypast marking the 60th Anniversary of the end of WWII. At 15.45, 19 aircraft started up to be ready to leave for the VE/VJ Day Flypast over London at 17.00 beginning with 5 Dragon Rapides, 2 Ansons, Lockheed 12A, Catalina, 3 DC-3’s, 2 B-25 Mitchells, 2 B-17’s and the BBMF’s Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane. It seemed that as soon as we saw them leave we were told to expect virtually all the 19 aircraft that went to London would be back either to do a Fly-by or land back at Duxford between 17.30 and 17.40. The first was the BBMF doing a Fly-by, the Lancaster this time with its bomb bay doors open, a job well done in memory of all those who did not return from WWII. A fitting finale to the Airshow. P7350 was busy in September 2005, it was one of Four Spitfires on the 3rd at Shoreham Airshow, the 3rd and 4th it was one of Six Spitfires at Biggin Hill Air Fair, then on the 10th it was one of Twelve Spitfires at Duxford for the 65th Anniversary Battle of Britain Airshow.

So not a gret deal during BoB


Tony
Adelaide, Australia

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Thanks a lot! I now found it also in The BoB Now & Then, Vol. V. It was flown by Polish P/O Ludwik Martel when it was shot down by JG 26 on 25 Oct 1940. (Although Gretzyngier states that it was P7325...)

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

She was not, Gretza is right.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Are you 100 % sure, Franek? Then when was P7350 forced to crash-land? Flown by whom?

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Yes, Martel never flew P7350.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Please forgive me for repeating my question, but how are you able to tell which source is erroneous? Even an original document like a logbook, an ORB, etc can contain errors. I am only interested in learning the actual facts in this case, or at least approach it as closely as possible.

Then when was P7350 forced to crash-land? Flown by whom?

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Well, this was a subject of thorough research based on several documents, including ORB and log book.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Is there anyone who knows when P7350 received its battle damage? Flown by whom on that occasion?

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Gentlemen

BoB Now and Then states that BOTH
P7350 P/O Martel
P7325 P/O Soden
were shot down on Oct 25th!!

For some reason, it is popular to state as Franek does, "I am using various primary sources", BUT, refrain from stating exactly what these sources say, which ultimately actually is AVOIDING to answer the question.

Franek PLEASE, ANYONE can understand you are using the sources you state, but you have to be aware of that the authors of BoB Now and Then hardly stuck their finger up in the air and GUESSED that Martel flew P7350 and Soden P7325! Christer is asking what you SPECIFICALLY have which makes the BoB book out of date in this question and you correct!
For example if you DO have Martel's logbook stating he flew P7325 when he was shot down, please SAY SO. If you have anything else which leads you to the conclusion, please go ahead and say that as well.

Christer
The most EASY conclusion of the whole subject is that there is a simple confusion and mix up between the pilots of the two aircraft, that is, Soden flew P7350 and Martell P7325, BUT that is of course only conjecture on my side. I just like you are eagerly awaiting what Franek's source really say...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Stig
Just check my previous post.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Stig, many thanks for your input.

However, circumstances show that it hardly is as simple as a confusion between P7350 (which is the damaged aircraft which still flies today) and P7325 in the sense that martel flew P7325 instead. Martel was hit in the left leg by shrapnel, and landed his damaged aircraft and it was repaired.

This could have been P7350 (as "Then & Now Vol. V" and "The Greatest Squadron of Them All" claim), but definitely not P7325, since that one became a write-off after the incident on 25 October.

Or does Gretzyngier actually claim that P7325 was repaired? If so, it would be very interesting to learn what Gretzyngier has to say about the final fate of P7325? How long did P7325 continue to serve after 25 October 1940? On which date was it finally lost or scrapped? Is there any other source which mentions the existence of P7325 after 25 October 1940?

Here are two other boards where this sunbject is discussed, apparently without coming to any definite conclusion:

http://disc.server.com/Indices/105008.html

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...ighlight=p7350

I don't have access to Martel's logbook, and not either to 603 Sqn's ORB, but on the latter forum, "Voytech" claims that "According to his personal Flying Log Book, Ludwik Martel has not flown P7350, unfortunately. P7359 XT-Q was his usual mount between November 1940 and January 1941, and he also flew P7550 XT-W and P7750 XT-L."

Unfortunately, "Voytech" doesn't mention if the serial number of the aircraft in which Martel force-landed on 25 Oct 1940 is mentioned in Martel's logbook. (May we interprete the absence of such a mentioning as a hint that no such note exists in Martel's logbook?)

There are scores of examples of writing errors in logbooks. So maybe the answer is that Martel or the clerk who made the notes in Martel's logbook simply made the error of writing P7550 or P7750 instead of P7350 for 25 October 1940?

Or maybe there was a third Spitfire in No. 603 Sqn which received battle damage on 25 October 1940 - unknown to all previous books and publications? No, that is not likely.

As it stands right now, the most probable conclusion is that there is an error in Martel's logbook, and that he indeed flew P7350 on 25 October 1940.

(A reasonable question is why this is so interesting. The answer is that P7350 is the oldest Spitfire in the world, and it still is flying. Thus it is interesting to know its history.)

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Beg me pardon, but you have the answer in Fly Past's thread!

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Hello,

Yes, This has turned out to be an interesting thread.
I can only add that I reviewed the spitfire aircraft record cards while in the UK some many years ago, and as for P7325, I have noted:

9MU 14-8-40
266Sqdn Wittering 6-9-40
603Sqdn 17-10-40, Cat3 ops 25-10-40
(P/O L Martel was wounded in combat coded W) My note added
GAL
41Sqdn 30-3-41
145Sqdn 28-7-41 19Sqdn 21-9-41
331Sqdn 6-11-41, Flying Acc. CatB 16-11-41
SAL convered to ASR(IIC)
57 OTU 22-5-43
277Sqdn 31-12-43 CatE 25-7-44

And so P7325 was repaired and later sent to SAL at an unspecified date for conversion

I can also add that in relation to P7350, the record card says that in relation to the 603 Sqdn incident on 17-10-40, this was a Flying Accident' resulting in Cat B damage, and there was no mention of any incident on 25-10-40

The squadron ORB and the aircraft accident cards may be of help, I have no further notes on these 2 aircraft.

As to who was flying which aircraft, there have been many variations - I notice that in Fighter Command Losses Appendix, Franks states
'25th October 603 Sqn P/O L Martel was wounded in combat, flying Hurricane (???) , P7325 W.'

After 50 years of researhing aircraft serials, I have learnt that this period (1939-1945) was a very distressing time to all concerned, non flying administrative staff included, and that record keeping was not always up to the standard that we might expect today (especially in our world of computers, etc). Many errors were made in recording events (miss-reading hand-writing, typing errors, etc). Many squadrons, mostly fighter due to the frantic activity and fluidity of the situation, only recorded what aircraft had been listed as 'serviceable' for the day, and not those that flew at any particular time, and certainly not 'who flew what' The same can apply to pilot's log books.
Historians should be very careful when 'rebuilding' the past, making educated guesses is acceptable, so long as this is made clear.

I commend all who participate in forums such as this, particlarly in a thread like this one where there is some differing thoughts and info, some day someone will come up with some much needed 'factual' information which might clear things up.

My regards to all,

Tony
Adelaide, Australia

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight also belongs to the majority which regards the conclusion that Martel flew P7350 as most plausible. See this latest post from Ted Burrows:

"The BBMF believe it was Ludwik Martel who was flying her when she was shot down on 25th October 1940. They recently changed the markings to XT-W which was her markings when Martel was forced down in her.
It was hoped to reunite pilot & plane at Duxford back in May but Martel was unable to make due to ill health."

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cg...ussion%20Forum

I think we can conclude that the case is pretty much solved now. However, it would be interesting if someone could attach a scan of Martel's logbook to this forum. That wouldn't be too difficult for those who have access to a copy of his logbook. Also, maybe someone could ask Martel what he thinks if there is a possibility that someone made a writing error in his logbook (that is, if the Serial No. even is mentioned for the flight in question).

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Why to ask if you know better?

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Because Christer asked before the post of Ted Burrows on June 12 2006.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Burrows is wrong as is apparent from VERY THIS thread.

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

I asked Peter Arnold to look at his transcription of the movement card of P7350.

He said 'If there was an accident on 25 October 1940, it is not recorded on the card. Repair at 1 CRU is recorded as Cat B damage on 31 October 1940.'

So the only thing for sure from the movement card is that SOMETHING happened between 17th Oct (delivered to 603) and then 31 October when sent to 1 CRU at Cowley.

Note: Usually damage is listed as FA or FB, Accident or Battle. In this case it was neither...on the card.

So I (and this is MY interpretation) take it from what Franek is indicating is that the incident was not due to air combat, it was a flying accident (pilot unknown at present and date unconfirmed at present)...

However, we do know that P7350 did suffer air combat damaged at some point during its service. As the evidence is still on the aircraft...

Re: Spitfire P7350
 

Thanks a lot for your input, paulmcmillan.

It feels like I'm repeating myself... :)

...but then when was P7350 forced to crash-land? Flown by whom?

I'll see what I can find at the National Archive in London next week. Vacation just started, friends! :D