HE-219 and DB 603G Engines
 

Hi, does anyone have any information as to whether or not the He-219 was ever equipped with the DB603G engines. If so, how many aircraft were issued and during what time frame? What was the aircraft's designation?

Thanks Much!
David :)

Answer to your question
 

Hi.
The HE 219 A-7 was fitted with the DB603G.
It was the last production version, i am sorry i can't answer your other questions but can tell you that the A-7 was the high altitude heavily armoured version. Very capable of destroying its main prey the Lancaster and Halifax but was so full of avionics, weapons , ejection seats, armour etc.. that it weighed more Empty than a fully loaded Mosquito or JU88 Night fighter.
Still a fantastic aircraft.

Hope this helps.
Jon [/b]

The DB 603G
 

NO, NO, NO, the He 219 was never powered by the DB 603G because the DB 603G never went into production! In fact, development of that engine had been stopped by August 1944. The DB 603E went into production in late 1944, but there is no verification of any of these engines finding their way into the He 219.

The highest verified mark of the He 219 was the A-5/R2 which was still powered by the DB 603A engine. That was W.Nr. 310 189, G9+CL, which was taken to the UK at war`s end and scrapped in 1948. It was a prototype for that mark. The last actual production version was the A-2. The last C-Amts listing I have is for Nov 44. In it the listing for the He 219 shows that in that month, 19 He 219A-2s were producted and another 15 He 219s were upgraded to A-2 standard. Artie may have figures on He 219 production into 1945.

And, yes, I do have Roland Remp`s excellent book on the He 219; but, about the A-7 he is wrong.

He 219s-january 1945
 

The copy of the January 1945 production list (graciously given to me by another Luftwaffe researcher indicates that there were 35 He 219 A-7sa and 1(one!) D-1 delivered. What subtype engines are not shown in the list. I do have a little information on the DB 603G, but it is pretty well buried right now. There is a note in the FW prototype data that 8-190 V32 was sent to DB in late 1943 for DB 603G testing.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

He 219 and DB 603G engines
 

Artie,
Just what kind of rubbish are you trying to feed us. Remember, April Idiot's Day is still three months away. Or is your "fellow Luftwaffe researcher" blowing smoke all over you?

You want us to believe that although Heinkel was able to produce just 25 He 219s during Sept. 1944 – the Luftwaffe's greatest month of production – and with the Reich's infrastructure hurting but still mainly intact; it was able to produce fully 35 of them, or 40% more, four months later at a time when the country had already entered final melt-down?

And then, you are saying that some RLM burocrat put his head on the chopping block to take at least 76 brand-new, high-performance engines from a/c in the Reich's Emergency Program, and hand them over to an aircraft not on that list? The only reason the He 219 program continued at all after July 1944 was as a place to use up the excess stock of DB 603A engines -- since the other two users, the Do 217 and the Me 410, had been cancelled -- and when they ran out so would He 219 production. Or does the listing have something to say on that also?

Happy New Year,
Felix

PS. In its letter to VDM on 8.8.44, DB noted the following engines either in development or production: DB 603 A, AA, AS, E, L, N, S and U;
DB 605 A-B, AS-BS, D-E, T; DB 610 A-B; and, DB 613 A-B. It also mentions the following sub-types equipped with MW 50 units: DB 603 AM, AAM, ASM, EM, LM; DB; DB 605 AM-BM, ASM-BSM, MM-DM (?), and L. As you can see, no 603G. So, if the a/c had switched to the Jumo 213E, given as an alternate engine in Remp's book, there would have had to have been months of modifications to resize everything for the new engine, and we have seen none of that. The only feasible alternative would have been the use of the DB 603E engine, which began production in late 1944. But, it was already ear-marked for the Do 335, and anyway would have resulted in a designation of 219 A-5/6, not A-7.

Production numbers
 

George,
I'm not an expert on He 219, so please forgive me, but as you say that Remp is wrong with the DB 603 G, is he also wrong with the production numbers? He gives the production per three months on page 149 of his book and there he states, that highest production was last three month of 1944 with 63 planes and only one plane less for the following three months (production from July to September 1944 only 38 planes!). So the 35 planes Artie states for January 1945 could easily be right if these numbers are correct.
Also according to "Flugzeug Profile Nr. 10" by Dressel and Griehl the He 219 A7/R1 to R4 were equipped with DB603 G.
Is it possible that all these DB 603 G-rumors occur from a typo and these were really DB 603 E's?
Kind regards
Robert

He 219 and the DB 603G
 

I am seen the number of He 219s built in the 3rd Quarter 1944 many times but have never bothered to check them. The C-Amts report gives the following production of new a/c as follows: July-16, August-17, Sept.-25. To me that looks like 58 a/c. Just for your info, the numbers for the next 2 months are: Oct.-18, Nov.-19; and, apparently, from Dec.-23; for a total of 60. And, although the numbers are again increasing, they still have quite a distance to go to get to 35. But, I can even accept the number of 35 more than I can accept that these were ALL A-7s.

Oh yes, the DB 603G was planned for several a/c, especially for the Me 410. And, in many references that you might look at today you will see notes that say the Me 410B was powered by the DB 603G. But, already in a meeting in June 1943 DB made the point that the Me 410 couldn't possibly be powered by the DB 603G before Dec. 44; and as you know, the Me 410 stopped production in Sept. 44.

Since the letter from DB to VDM of 8.8.44 I quoted, was by an engine maker to the firm that is making propellers for its engines, I would assume that it would ensure that the list was accurate and complete.

Yes, it is possible that the DB 603E was meant to power the A-7. I haven't been looking for original documentation on the He 219, so really can't comment on that aspect of it. If that is so, would there be high enough production of the engine to enable the powering in one month of 35 Heinkels? I really do doubt it because it took several months for the DB 603A production to become great enough to enable the Me 410 to reach its planned production of 50 units per month. I would expect the same for the DB 603E, or any other DB engine, and so would expect to see a slow build-up in the numbers of a particular series produced.

So, who knows, I may yet have to apologize to Artie, and put on my sack-cloth and ashes; but, as of right now, it doesn't seem probable. The start to a partial solution might be to know what the production mix of He 219s was for Dec 44.

Thanks for your comments, Robert. It's the questions of people like you who keep us so-called experts, honest. For what it's worth, I responded to the original question only because I have spent many years researching the DB 603A and G engines, and not because I think of myself as very knowledgeable on the He 219.
George

C-Amt Jan 1945
 

Well george,

The copy of the C-Amt Monatsmeldung for January 1945 came from GB archives, appears to be quite authentic and the data presented cross-checks very well for other a/c which I am interested in.
Frankly, I know very little about He 219s and was trying to share to data from primary source material that has not been distributed very widely. I will not waste my time and effort sharing any more of it on this forum. Just finished scanning 150 reels of microfilm, which were not indexed and thus not used very much. I came across a fair amount of DB material that apparently has not been seen before. You won't see anyof it here.

best regards,

Artie Bob

Ne 219 and DB 603G
 

Oh Artie, don't act like such a snot. As I said in my first note on your C-Amts entry for January, in light of both the military situation and the previous construction rate, the numbers and the type seem absurd. Does the December report give any run in to the January numbers in terms of type produced, or by a new factory coming on line?

Jeez, I'm forever getting raked over the coals over my comments. But, I don't wimp out, pick up my goodies, and run home to cry. It may tee me off for a short while, but that's one of the perils of opening my mouth on a particular subject.

So what are the GB Archives? I think anyone into DB engines has all manner of material not generally available, but it's always nice to find more, so more power to you.

All the best,
George

Artie Bob
 

It would be a real shame to lose the information and knowledge put forth by Artie Bob on this forum. I for one would really hate to see that happen.

Walt

Temper Gentlemen, lets take a step back...

I was kind of happy the see Artie Bob again, since it has been a while!

Somehow its become en vogue to bash TOCH for everything that's bing said in the forum, even by some relatively close to the community, IMHO a real shame...

No reason to ride anyone's tail here, so please act accordingly, or else I will have to instead.

I found the following information that may be of help in this case:
Source BA/MA RL 3/1024 Flugzeug-Programm 227 Ausgabe 1, dated January 9, 1945:

Muster Motor Total on order delivered to Planned deliveries
30.11.1944 from 01.12.44
He 219A-0 DB 603A 104 104 nil
He 210A-2 DB 603AA 85 85 nil
He 219A-7 DB 603E 210 nil 210
He 219D-1 213E 5 nil 5

All were produced by the Ernst Heinkel Flugzeug Werke.

Sorry, this came out completely garbled. It shuld read something like this:
He 219A-0 Engine: DB 603A Total on order: 104. Delivered up to 30.11.44: 104. No further deliveries.

He 219A-2 Engine: DB 603AA. Total on order 85. Delivered up to 30.11.44: 85. No further deliveries.

He 219A-7 Engine: DB603E. Total on order: 210. None delivered
up to 30.11.44. Deliveries to take place from December 1944 to July 1945.

He 219D-1 Engine: 9-213E. Total on order: 5. None delivered up to 30.11.44. Deliveries to take place in December 1944.

I hope this turns out a little better this time.

He 219 and the DB 603G
 

Thank you, Seaplanes, for that valuable information. As I went through the English version of Remp's He 219 book, I found reference to the two engine types you mention--the 603AA and 603E, on pg. 104: "According to a message from the RLM GL/C/B2 (no date given), the DB 603 AA powerplant was no longer adequate for production of the He 219 A-2. Effective immediately, this version was to be equipped with the DB 603 E, resulting in the designation He 219 A-7." But then on pg. 110, Remp changes his mind and says: "Now, in January 1945, production of the A-7 finally began, although with the DB 603 G." One would think the book had been written by a committee.

And, to you, Artie, I owe a sincere apology for doubting the information you gave regarding the type of He 219 produced in January 1945. With that apology shall go a steak dinner when we have the opportunity to meet again. In my humble defence, I can say only that I thought you were ragging me because of my adversion to the mention of the use of the 603G with any kind of a/c since that engine never entered production. So, it's become a bit of a red rag to me. Anyway, I do apologize. But, what plants produced such a large number of He 219s in one month?

All the best,
George

Reconciling the above info with Remp's "He 219" bo
 

With the posting of Seaplanes' excellent info on He 219 production, I have attempted to reconcile it with the table info in Remp's "He 219." Since some of this is a bit of WAGing, I would welcome comments and criticisms as well as any more info on the subject.

Page 149. He 219 Production Numbers. This table is totally garbled, evident from the fact that no He 219s were accepted by the GAF until the last quarter of 1943. For that period, the US Strategic Bombing Survey gives the following figures: Oct: 7, Nov: 9, Dec. 10, for 26 in that quarter. In 1944 the production was as follows: Jan. 11, Feb. 0, Mar 14, for 25 for the 1st Quarter. Apr. 15, May. 17, Jun. 13, for 45 in the 2nd Quarter. Jul. 16, Aug. 17, Sep. 25, for 58 in the 3rd Quarter. Oct. 18, Nov. 19, Dec. 23, for 60 in the 4th Quarter. This gives a total of 225 a/c accepted during 1943 and 1944. Artie said that 36 a/c were produced in Jan. 45, but beyond that I don't know anything about production in 1945.

Page 149. He 219 Werknummer Summary
I looked at these summaries in conjunction with the loss list of pp. 134, the diary of Eric Brown, and W.Nrs. From "The Captive Luftwaffe" and from "War Prizes." Assuming that the list is correct in its general sense, I would make the following changes.
310 000 - No losses noted, so possibly this series was used for the He 219D-1.
310 100 - A-2 as evidenced by the three diary entries of Eric Brown, and notations on the a/c brought to the UK and USA.
420 000 - Probably for the A-7 with the DB 603E engines.
So, if you change the designations in the loss lists for the 310 100 and beyond to A-2s, and the designations of the A-5s to A-7, the list and W.Nrs. would agree.

Page 137. He 219s taken to England.
290 123 should be 290 126, and is, as noted, an A-2.
310 109, should be an A-2
310 106, should be an A-2.
310 190, should be an A-5/R2. It is the one with V11 on the nose.
310 215, should be an A-2.

Here are figures from the DB engine list of 7.44 on the performance of the DB engines used by the He 219.

DB 603A. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm. (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency (3'): 1750PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 570l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 5.7km
Emergency (3'): 1620PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 530l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1510PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 950PS, 2700rpm, .85ata

DB 603AA. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1670PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 550l/h
Climb and combat: 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 7.3km (emergency), and 7.2km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1450PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 480l/h
Climb and combat: 1370PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 440l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1020PS, 2700rpm.

DB 603E. Length: 2706mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1800PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 580l/h
Climb and combat: 1575PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 490l/h
At critical altitude of 7.0km (emergency), and 7.1km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1550PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 510l/h
Climb and combat: 1430PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1060PS, 2700rpm.

Be advised that these figures don't always agree exactly with the figures posted in "Mustertafeln und Leistungsschaubilder der deutschen Flugmotoren. Nach dem Stand vom 15.9.44" even though the narratives are both dated in July 1944.

This is the info on the Jumo 213E from the above reference.
Jumo 213E-1; Length (fighter installation): 2536mm, Height: 1140mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1750PS, 3250rpm
Climb and combat: 1580PS, 3000rpm
At critical altitude of 9.8km (emergency), and 9.6km (climb and combat)
Emergency: 1320PS, 3250rpm
Climb and combat: 1270PS, 3000rpm

As I said above, I would welcome any and all comments and criticisms on this because feedback will help us all learn more about the He 219 a/c.
George

Production of He 219
 

The U.S Intelligence Service asked 15.6.1945 the Gen.Qu. 6.Abt. to compile a list of German aircraft production 1939-1945. This list was delivered 28.6.1945 to the U.S.
There are a few important notes in the introduction:
"Fuer die Zeit von October 1939 - Dezember 1943 liegen die Produktionszahlen in Form der G.L.-Meldelisten noch vor. Fuer diesen Zeitraum sind daher in nachfolgender Aufstellung die Neubau-, Umbau- und Reparaturzahlen die wirklichen, dagegen sind die durch Gen.Qu. verfuegten Flugzeugzahlen aus den einzelnen Tagesmeldungen erreichen und gegebenenfalls nicht ganz stichhaltig bzw. nicht vollständig. Bei der Errechnung dieser Zahlen ist nach bestem Wissen auf die Schwierigkeiten bei neuauflaufenden Mustern und die gegebenenfalls eingetretenen Auffälle Ruecksicht genommen."...
"Fuer die Zeit von Januar 1944 bis März 1945 liegen keine Industriefertigungsunterlagen mehr vor, sondern nur noch Angaben ueber von der Industrie flugklar (komplettiert) gemeldete Flugzeuge, die teilweise frontklar waren oder aber in Nachruestbetrieben erst frontklar gemacht wurden. Ausserdem sind fuer diesen Zeitraum die tatsächlich der Truppe zugewiesenen Flugzeuge bekannt, so das hier die Industriefertigungszahlen errechnet werden mussten und gegebenefalls nicht völlig stichhaltig sind."...
" Ebenso sind V-Muster teilweise nicht in den Neufertigungszahlen enthalten."

According to this list, the following production figures are given for He 219 (new aircraft):

May 1943: 4
October 1943: 7
January 1944: 11
February 1944 5
March 1944: 11
April 1944: 25
May 1944: 14
June 1944: 16
July 1944: 18
August 1944: 5
September 1944: 27
October 1944: 19
November 1944: 19
December 1944: 25
January 1945: 36
February 1945: 9
March 1945: 17

Best regards,

Matti Salonen

Production numbers
 

Having rechecked my sources, I found, that the production numbers Matti gives for the He 219 are perfectly consistent with those given in "Flugzeug Profile Heinkel He 219" on page 12. In addition there are 6 planes rebuilt from scrapped he 219's with no date. These might be the 6 planes, Remp states for second quarter 1945.
What makes me puzzled is the large discrepancy between the Remp-book and "Flugzeug Profile" by Dressel/Griehl for year 1943, where Remp gives a total of 50 planes versus only 11 planes in Flugzeug Profile or Matti's list, and also for 1944, where the difference is similar, but the other way round. How did this discrepancy arise? Interesting is, that despite the different numbers given, both sources get exactly the same total production of 274 planes.
Flugzeug Profile gives the same Werknummern-list as Remp, but of course I agree with George that this can be faulty.
Kind regards
Robert

He 219 production
 

Thanks for that info, Matti. The listing I used last evening was for Luftwaffe acceptances by month. But, as you say, Robert, there is a really large difference in the numbers produced and the numbers accepted during 1943 for which I cannot see a ready explanation.

Anyway, excellent material,
George

You fellas are really splendid!!! :D
This has been a very enlightening discussion--superb!!!

Glimspur

He219 discussion
 

Hello friends,

Studying the history of I.NJG 1 and Venlo airfield for many, I am 1. very interested in the discussion and 2. was really amazed by the mass of details that came up in! As you know the operational start of the He219 was from Venlo airfield in June 1943 and I.NJG 1 had been the sole unit to receive the He219 in sufficient numbers.

The discussion also has learnt me (and hopefully others too!) that how strong someone believes in his own knowledge, others MIGHT have other information too that even could shake your own assumptions. If we all try to RESPECT that chance, big or small, before we put something on paper, we might find what really happened 60 years - I repeat 60 years - ago.
Hoping that Artie and George continue in good spirits for the sake of this forum AND airwar history, all the best :wink:

Marcel Hogenhuis
Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2