A-20 17 VA
 

This photo was found on Soviet Archives ...is marked as a A-20 based somewhere in Bulgaria sometime in 1944. I doubt this info and I ask those
who are familiar with this to verify the nfo

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

I doubt it too. This is an A-20C (B-3), where black No.28 on the nose corresponds to ~ S/N: 41-19140 or so. On October 1, 1944 the 17th Air Army had only the following A-20C Bostons in their 244 BAD regiments (260, 449, 861 BAP):

41-19353, 42-33151, 42-33294, 42-33302, 42-33326, 42-33348, 42-33359.

UA-20C (trainer versions) in 17 VA, 244 BAD service by October 1, 1944: ...416, ...802, 41-19623, 41-19627, 41-19291, 41-19346.

But eg. on August 1, 1942 the 17 VA, 861 BAP had similar A-20C Bostons to 41-19140:

41-19115
41-19132
41-19134
41-19138
41-19153
41-19154
41-19256
41-19278
41-19280
41-19290
41-19320
41-19324
41-19326
41-19349
41-19592,

so from that "early" range. If 41-19140 belonged to the 244 BAD indeed, then the date and location (Bulgaria) is incorrect, - alias way too late, and definitely nothing like that between October 1, 1944 - July 1, 1945. Another similar, early A-20C, S/N: 41-19142 belonged to 277 BBAP, - but of course, 277 BBAP was not in the 17th Air Army.

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

I totally agree with you , the Russian archive who published the stuff is just misleading

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Yep, looks like it is. By the way, the mechanical-maintenance document for the 17 VA, 861 BAP "Boston-3" bombers on August 1, 1942 lists the installed engine serial numbers as well for the aircrafts.
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Thanks Gabor . questions :

1.Did the attachment saw combat in Hungaria ?

2. Where 449 BAP was based later in Hungaria ?

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Yes, the 244 BAD with all of their 3 regiments (260, 449, 861 BAP) followed and covered the 3rd Ukrainian Front through Yugoslavia, Hungary and Austria in 1944-1945.

17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP bomber airfields in Hungary (YYYY/MM/DD):

Zombor (Sombor) - (1944.12.16 - 1945.01.03.)
Madocsa - (1945.01.03 – 1945.01.20.)
Érsekcsanád - (1945.01.20 - 1945.02.05.)
Zombor - (1945.02.05 – 1945.03.25.)
Tököl (Budapest-S) - (1945.03.25 - 1945.03.31.)
Veszprém-Jutas - (1945.03.31 - 1945.04.04.)
Pápa - (1945.04.04 - 1945.04.26.)
Röjtökmuzsaj - (1945.04.26 –)

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Nice graphic. Yes, this A-20B S/N: 41-2937, "За Победу!" was shot down in Hungary over Börgönd airfield by Hptm. Helmut Lipfert on January 8, 1945 at 14:18 with 2 other Bostons. (43-21588 and 43-9596) Her crew of 4 was killed at the crash:

л-т Ветлов Виктор Михайлович pilot (№104164, +)
л-т Ионов Виктор Матвеевич navigator (№104174, +)
с-а Толмацкий Иосиф Исаевич radioman (+)
с-т Бурцев Василий Федорович gunner (+)

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Thanks Gabor , I think this crew were a Crimean and 2nd Iasi Chisinau Offennsive vets
do you by chance got their photos ? Also it states that Lipfert last victory in Hungaria
was a Yak 9 D , do you know the pilot's name ?

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

1: No pic of crew.

2: Lipfert: it was a Yak-9M, NOT a Yak-9D! S/N: 4515340, 5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, л-т Рагулин Виктор Яковлевич (MIA) at Ács-Felsőgalla on March 21, 1945 at 15:30 (local time).

"17:30 (Moscow time) На разведку, вед м-р Костиков. При подходе к п. Ач навстречу 8 ФВ-190. Пара развернулась на 180 гр чтобы уйти в облачность. В это время 12 ФВ-190 идущие с востока пошли в атаку. * - на Рагулина, 12 - на Костикова. Костиков отбил атаку, перешел на бреющий и ушел на свою территорию. Рагулин НБЗ.//Костиков сбил одного и подбил одного, рагулин сбил одного ФВ-190. На разведку, вед м-р Костиков. При подходе к п. Ач навстречу 8 ФВ-190. Пара развернулась на 180 гр чтобы уйти в облачность. В это время 12 ФВ-190 идущие с востока пошли в атаку. * - на Рагулина, 12 - на Костикова. Костиков отбил атаку, перешел на бреющий и ушел на свою территорию. Рагулин НБЗ."

Reported time & area: 100% match! (I am not surprised, since Lipfert was a crazy accurate and honest fighter ace!) Fw and Bf fighters were regularly misidentified in soviet reports, especially in cloudy, dark weather.

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Ragulin's Yak-9M was a new plane, because on January 14, 1945 the 179 IAP had only the following 6 Yak-9s, the rest (18) was all Yak-1Bs (plus a Po-2 biplane for HQ):

2515313
2515366
2815338
3215337
7153100
10166027

(As you see, one was from Omsk, Factory No.166 and 5 from Novosibirsk, Factory No.153.)

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Understand that he brought Ragulin down while newly appointed as JG 53 Komodore ?
Is Ragulrin buried in Budapest ?

Secondly do you firm dates when he arrived from Krim in Romania ( 44) and Hungary ?

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

1: yes
2: no known grave
3: no idea

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

As into his precise reports also here I would be very
careful same as into his other JG52 collegues ,Russian and
American counterparts claims during WWII.

Example :

Out of his 12 claims over Moldova and Romania only
5 are completely accurate including a Lib of 376th BG.

On 31.5.44 he claimed at Brusila a PE-2 though this
aircraft was on engine test flight unarmmed which attacked
and claimed by numerous other pilots of his group. Same
about the remaining IL-2's , P-39 and YAK 7 claimed by
him while on 27.6.44 no IL-2 were lost by 5 and 17 VA !

PS : the PE-2 was in dirty configuration for landing
( flaps and gear extended) when attacked by
3 ME-109

Alex K

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Gabor

May I ask if 7153100 should be interpreted as aircraft 100 of batch 7 from factory 153? If yes, why was it not called 07153100?

Cheers
Stig

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Alex, are there any other details that you can share with us?
Was this Pe-2 from 511 ORAP, 5 VA? Crew of pilot Dyadov HSU

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Stig,

Thanks, it's a good point, it was 07153100 indeed! Sorry, Excel dropped the first digit 'zero' when I copied, so it was just a typo. It was Yak-9T, S/N: 07153100, plane No.100 of batch No.07 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153. Interestingly its marking was white '9', not '100'. Most planes, however, in 179 IAP by January 14, 1945 used the plane-in-batch number as tactical ID number in white with a few exceptions:

Yak-9T, 07153100: white '9' - sic!
Yak-9D, 10166027: white '10'
Yak-9M, 2815338: white '38'
Yak-9M, 3215337: white '37'
Yak-9M, 2515366: white '66'
Yak-9M, 2615313: white '19' - sic! - Engine No.: 33-2259, crashlanded on March 20, 1945 with Терентьев Алексей Николаевич onboard: "3:20 аэр Ниж. Карталы 4 Як-1 и Як-9 вылетел на сопровождение 6 Ил-2 92 ГШАП в р-н Чеп. После БЗ ошибка при посадке, уходя на второй круг сел на фюзеляж в 800 м от аэр и разбил самолет. Летчик цел."

(WWII Yak-9s after batch No.25 from Novosibirsk were Yak-9M models!)


Most of the 18 Yak-1Bs of 179 IAP by January 14, 1945 also used the plane-in-bach No.s as tactical numbers, here I list only the few exceptions:

Yak-1B, 03162: white '26'
Yak-1B, 08177: white '8' (not '08'!)
Yak-1B, 08179: white '8' (not '08'!)
Yak-1B, 47163: white '46' - Engine No.: 315-598, crashlanded on March 11, or 12, 1945 with л-т Король Василий Карпович onboard. "12:05 4 Як-1 на сопровождение 7 Ил-2 в р-н Диниеш. На маршруте ЮЗ Будапешт. Заметил масло на полу кабины и запах гари. Мотор сдал обороты. Развернулся в сторону аэр Вечеш и сел на фюзеляж не долетая 2 км до него. Самолет разбит, летчик цел. 24.3.45 поступил в 10 ОТЭР"

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

I checked my lists, but unfortunately my very first 511 ORAP Pe-2 loss record is for crashlanded Pe-2 on, or around September 11, 1944. (S/N: 2/150, engines: 325-576 and 63-31, авария, сдан в 109 БАО на запчасти.)

I have their losses AFTER this date, but no records for May-June.

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Gabor,

Do you have any to share that were the result of German fighter action?

...You know how much this fascinates me

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Nick,

Yes, I have a few, but most of them just: "crashlanded", or "missing". Hard to determine the actual cause. It is a lot easier to check by date and see if there was any losses.

I have the full list of planes in 511 ORAP for May 1, 1945 by AC serials, engine serials & tail numbers (markings):

24 Pe-2s
2 UPe-2s (trainers)
1 Po-2 (messenger) biplane


For other dates I have the full list of 511 ORAP planes by serials only. For the same serials I assume markings (and perhaps one, or both engines) were the same as on May 1, 1945:

October 1, 1944: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2, 3 Po-2
January 1, 1945: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2
April 1, 1945: 25 Pe-2

(Lots of changes, transfers, etc. Same no. of planes does not mean they had no losses. Eg. 24 planes - 3 losses + 3 new planes are still = 24!)

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Nick

Exactly was Dyadov ,near Singureni ( Iasi area ) on a PE-2
engine test flight (511 ORAP ) .

Let me know what other details you
need

BR
Alex

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Cheers, Gabor,

Can you perhaps confirm:

Heinrich Tammen's claim of 21.9.44/1715?
Birkner's claim of 17.10.44/1500?
Barkhorn claimed one one on 24.11.44 but no timing is given...
Manfred Leisebein on 18.1.45/1500?

Nick

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Nick,

September 21, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest record: September 13, 1944 - flak, burned
October 17, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closes record: October 26, 1944 - missing
November 24, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest records: November 21 - crashlanding, a Po-2!!!, S/N: 640732, and December 3, 1944 - crashlanding.
January 18, 1945: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. One write off, however, on January 20, 1945:

511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 15/248, engines: 425-1372 and 41-4931 was "shot down" by fighters! No casualty listed, plane written off by January 20, 1945, again by 26th - probably delayed record after mechanical inspection at airfield.

Note, that 39 ORAP and 48 OGvRAP GK also flew Pe-2s (and Pe-3s) along with some Yak-9D, Yak-9R, A-20B planes in the area!
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Nick,

Please note, that dates of mechanical write-offs might not match the dates of reported action losses found in combat diaries! Mechanical dates might have some days of delay depends on inspection time, attempted repairs, etc.

Anyways, 511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed in the October 1, 1944 inventory, but NOT listed in the January 1, 1945 list are:

12/248 - MIA, 26-31.10.44 report - Кудинов Иван Васильевич crew on October 26, 1944
12/339 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 3, 1944
13/228 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - Козлов crew by December 22, 1944
16/153 - wear and tear, 01-15.11.1944 report - by November 9, 1944
19/260 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 23, 1944

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on January 1, 1945, but not listed on October 1, 1944 yet:

9/341 - из 15 ОРЗАП, 16-25.10.44 report - by October 17, 1944


I AM SORRY, on October 1, 1944: 511 ORAP had 24 Pe-2s but on January 1, 1945 they had ONLY 20 Pe-2s, NOT 24!!!!! On April 1, 1945 they had 25 Pe-2s.

So after October 1, 1944: 24-5+1=20 (for January 1, 1945.)
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Nick,

511 ORAP Pe-2s which were still listed on January 1, 1945, but were not listed on April 1, 1945. If the Pe-2 loss/claim on January 18, 1945 belonged to the 511 ORAP and was total loss, then it had to be one of these four:

11/196 - MIA, 16.01.1945 report, MIA by January 6, 1945, Еремин Виталий Михайлович crew, ОБД - 6.1.45, отчет 16.1.45
15/248 - Lost in dogfight by 20.01.1945, В ОБД не нашел. Списан 20.01.1945!!! - This one?????
2/229 - crashlanded, 20-25.03.1945, списаны 31.3.45 на рулежке произошел пожар, техник Сораколетов
8/250 - в 260 САМ ОдВО, left the unit, 15-20.03.1945 report

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on April 1, 1945, but not listed on January 1, 1945 yet:

11/363
13/363
13/385
14/382
16/379
17/377
20/383
4/377
6/377

So between January 1 - April 1, 1945: 20-4+9=25 (Pe-2s.)

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

The only 511 ORAP trainer UPe-2 (УПе-2) listed on October 1, 1944, January 1, 1945 AND May 1, 1945 was 10/230. Interestingly it was not listed on April 1, 1945, but it could be an error. Engines: 41-4095 and 41-4757. The 2nd, new UPe-2 on May 1, 1945 was 20/456 with engines: 51-10063 and 51-10046.

On February 1, 1945 511 ORAP had 19 Pe-2s, plus one under (major) repair.
On March 1, 1945 511 ORAP had 23 Pe-2s.

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Cheers, Gabor,

It seems 15/248 is a very likely possibility for Leisebein's victory.

A special thankyou for sharing this archival material with us. It's the true nuts-and-bolts of the air war

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Nick,
You are most welcome. Yes, I think your 'candidate' for January 18, 1945 was 511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 15/248.

By the way, the Pe-2 serial numbers were painted on the tail surfaces with a horizontal line. See pic of 511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 5/308, which was listed in all of my Pe-2 service lists and most likely survived the war:

October 1, 1944
January 1, 1945
April 1, 1945
May 1, 1945.

On May 1, 1945 her tactical tail No. was '29', engine serials: 41-4916 and 41-4859.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Gabor can you post or email me a good photo of a 511 ORAP PE-2 ? Here's one dated
June 1944, can you ID by chance the pilot ?

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Drop an e-mail address in PM. Your 511 ORAP Pe-2 was lost during WWII, because No.6 was not in the list of 511 ORAP planes on May 1, 1945. Only these tail numbers:

10-18, 21, 23-35, plus one without a number. (plus 2 UPe-2s)

Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Minor detail, but tail No.s are reversed in the May 1 and June 1, 1945 lists for the following two 511 ORAP Pe-2s:

May 1, 1945:

Pe-2, S/N: 9/155, No.31
Pe-2, S/N: 13/224, No.32

June 1, 1945:

Pe-2, S/N: 9/155, No.32
Pe-2, S/N: 13/224, No.31

I don't know which ones are correct, (or if the markings really changed, which I doubt.) Unfortunately I have no info on tail No.s for the late war combat losses, only for the "surviving" planes.

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Nick,
I reviewed the other Pe-2 and Pe-3 losses in the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front areas beside the 511 ORAP for late 1944-1945:

48 OGvRAP GK Pe-2 and Pe-3 losses:
(This was a "mobile" recce. unit, subordinated straight to the VVS HQ., supporting the most critical areas. They had Yak-9D, B-25C and A-20C losses as well, these are just the Pe-2s, Pe-3s.)

Pe-2 on August 20, 1944
Pe-2 on November 13, 1944
Pe-2 on December 9, 1944
Pe-2 on December 24, 1944
Pe-3 on January 22, 1945
Pe-2 on February 4, 1945
Pe-3 on February 19, 1945
Pe-3 on March 1, 1945
Pe-2 on March 17, 1945
Pe-3 on April 25, 1945
Pe-2 on April 27, 1945
Pe-2 on May 5, 1945

17 VA, 39 ORAP Pe-2 losses:
(They also had Yak-9D, Yak-9M and Yak-9R losses as well).

Pe-2 on December 11, 1944
Pe-2 on December 16, 1944
Pe-2 on January 3, 1945
Pe-2 on January 4, 1945
Pe-2 on January 16, 1945
Pe-2 on January 23, 1945
Pe-2 on January 29, 1945
Pe-2 on January 31, 1945
Pe-2 on February 4, 1945
Pe-2 on March 1, 1945
Pe-2 on March 20, 1945
Pe-2 on April 26, 1945
Pe-2 on April 30, 1945.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Hi Gabor, is there any chance of some crew details (names and fates) for the guys that were flying 15/248?

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Sorry, I have no crew details for 15/248, only for 11/196 on January 6, 1945:

ст.л-т Еремин Виталий Михайлович (MIA)
ст.л-т Гончарук Василий Федосеевич (MIA)
с-а Мухтарулин (MIA)

I assume there was no casualty on 15/248, or at least personnel records do not mention them. Soviet records -unlike the American MACRs- do not always report everything in one folder, because eg. the mechanical/maintenance reports do not mention the crews, while combat reports do not always report serials, etc. To get a full view of the event, we must get all possible records together which definitely makes it more difficult.
Gabor

Re: A-20 17 VA
 

Yugoslavs and Russians, almost certainly Sombor...
Source-Ebay

Cheers
Aleks