Convoy reconnaissance
 

Good afternoon

Can anyone tell me whether if a convoy made its way from Port Said to Liverpool In mid October 1939 would it be susceptible to discovery by any reconnaissance aircraft operating within range? Was there any luftwaffe setup that early on to provide reconnaissance for British convoys? Presumably they’d have to be very long range. Just wondering whether they were allowed a presence in either Italy or neutral Spain that early on

James

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

As far as I can tell, that early in the war, in October 1939, there was no German reconnaissance aircraft based in Italy or Spain. Both countries were neutral (i.e., on the German side), and would not allow the Luftwaffe aircraft to be based there.

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Luftwaffe long-range reconnaissance over the Atlantic with any meaningful coverage in October 1939 is doubtful. But the convoy's cargo, departure and movements were quite likely known to German Abwehr agents and to the naval Funkhorchdienst operating out of Hamburg. You can find basic coverage of this subject in the following books as well as those of more current vintage on the same topic:

Farago, Ladislas. The Game of the Foxes: The Untold Story of German Espionage in the United States and Great Britain During World War II.
Kahn, David. Hitler’s Spies: German Military Intelligence in World War II.

L.

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Way beyond the range of German recce ac which at this stage were still based in Germany. Fw 200s were the only ac capable & there were too few of them & in any case they were operating from the north of Germany

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Thanks Guys

James

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

I would be very surprised if the Germans did not ask their Italian Allies and Spanish friends to keep an eye on British movements in the Med area. I doubt if the Italians would say no to such a request

So even if the Italians were not at war at this time, they surely must have had their own recce planes all over the Med and as long as they stayed over International waters there must have been very little the British could have done about it unless they wanted to declare war on Italy themselves.

Spain was neutral of course, but there is little doubt which side they "favoured". So I am very positive that they also passed on any intelligence the Germans wanted and which they could give away without being caught 'in flagranti'

This together with other intelligence already mention would mean the Germans had a very good control of what happened in the area.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

I believe that in October 1939 the Germans had more pressing things to worry about than the British ship movement in the Mediterranean area.

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Hello James,
Do you have a specific convoy in mind?

Bruce

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Indeed

But that is not how intelligence works.
Britain was an Empire in 1939 and if you start a war with an Empire you also need to keep track of what the Empire can do and will do, not only its Motherland.

That is how I would have done it, and I don't think anyone back in the 1930s would have thought otherwise.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Well, it is the Empire which declared the war on Germany on 3 September 1939, and not the other way around.

As for the state of German Intelligence, the picture was really mixed - some notable successes, and some dismal failures. I read somewhere, must have been here https://books.google.ie/books/about/...AJ&redir_esc=y, that Milch ordered a couple of books from English bookstores, which told him more about Britain that he could learn from his own intelligence. Anyway...

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

In the run up to the war, aerial reconnaissance over Great Britain occurred in 1939.


http://www.hitlersukpictures.co.uk/

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

On the other hand they derived a lot of intelligence on convoys from their Y-Service. I don't know any specifics for 1939 however.

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Did the British run convoys that early in the war?
Richard

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Hi,

To answer the question regarding running convoys early in the war take a look at http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html and use the convoy finder

Attached is a sample for 1 Oct 1939

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

Hi,

A couple of relevant entries from the KTB of the German Seekriegsleitung. First, from 3 October 1939: "Since 1 Sept. 24 convoys, 7 of which entered Gibraltar (5 from the west, 2 from the east), 10 left Gibraltar (5 westbound, 2 eastbound, 1 southbound for Casablanca or Dakar, 2 destination unknown) and 7 passed the Strait of Gibraltar (3 westbound, 2 eastbound, 2 destination unknown). Figures given represent minimum numbers."

From 12 October 1939: "Radio monitoring reports: The cruisers Shropshire and Sussex left Aden for Zanzibar on 6 Oct. presumably en route to the Cape. The Glorious, Malaya, and Bulldog passed Port Said southbound on 9 Oct."

From 18 October 1939: "On 15 Oct. a convoy, destroyer escort, and auxiliary cruiser coming from the west put into Gibraltar."

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Convoy reconnaissance
 

It's worth remembering that the Germans had raiders and their support ships at sea, so tracking what the RN was doing would be a priority, as evidenced by Andrew's post. However that would not necessarily include sending non-existent long-range recce aircraft into distant neutral air bases. Keeping track of what went into and out of the Med via radio monitoring and using agents in Spain at one end with agents in the Arab world at the other would be sufficient.