Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Gentlemen,

the immediate success of my prior posting referring to the clarification of a loss of III./JG 54 a couple of days ago encourages me to try it again:

In my sources I have a loss report from 3./JG 50 dated October 21st, 1943, which states that Uffz. Ulrich - no Christian name known - was shot down and killed in aerial combat near Kloster Chumb in Bf 109 G-6, WNr. 160 085.

As far as I can see there were no aerial activities over the Reich by daylight on October 21st at all and definitely no air combats.

So what have we got here - did this loss concern another unit - "Wilde Sau " at night ? -, was it the date again or what is wrong ?

Any founded help would be most welcome.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Hi Jochen,

1943-10-21
Bf 109G-6, WNr 160085 3./JG 50
Nördl. Kloster Chumb
Flugzeugführer Uffz Ullrich, Paul †
Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.

Please compare the Werknummer with a loss reported by II./JG 53 on 13 December 1943 - possibly WNr 160085 again...

Apparently, there is confusion regarding serial numbers of lost aircraft not only within the RAF... ;)

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Hi, Christer.

If you are referring to the aircraft damaged 15% due to pilot error at Wien-Seyring this is reported as WNr 150085 (not 160085) in the loss report of 16.12.1943.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

The 150 xxx WNr. series were G-10s, all from 45. No record of JG 53 losing any other machine from this block. Also the lowest number I have is 150506.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Hi Jochen:

There seems to be a lot of conflicting data that day. I cannot add to what Christer and Jim have said regarding the loss, except the SKZ is listed as NA+TF.

In checking Foreman’s book, the only action listed by daylight were Ramrods by RAF and USSAF fighters where 5 Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units. The action is listed as over France and the Low Countries. In checking Frank Oylnyk’s information, there were no claims made by USAAF units on 21-Oct., so something in wrong there. However, on 20-Oct there was an apparent Rodeo that went into France, the Low Countries. Several Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units and pilots from the 353rd FG made 3 x Bf 109 damaged claims near Sittard and Duren. I am not sure where these are in relation to Kloster Chumb. I wonder if someone has a wrong date?

John

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

I think Jochen's Wilde Sau theory is the most plausible. Unfortunately, Alfred Grislawski ( who de facto led JG 50 by that time) is no longer among us so that we can ask him if he remembers that pilot.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Interesting, Jim.

There is no doubt that the second digit in the loss report is a '5', I will make a scan and put out in this answer later tonight.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

My guess is that its a typo and possibly WNr. 15085 - certainly something not uncommon with those documents. Interestingly, this is the only WNr. missing between 15080 and 15089 (15090 also missing) and many of these were JG 53 machines.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Jim P.,

it looks like very good explanation. I would guess you are right.

Best

Michal

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Unfortunately he isn't right because the W.Nr. 15 085 was an G - 4 trop with an accident on 12 February, 1943, in Leipzig - Mockau. The a/c was destroyed (IIRC 70%) and not accepted by BAL.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

P.S.: An typo of course ... but what about the 140 085? I checked the Prien - chronicle - there are some losses from the 140 xxx - batch like the 140 088, 140 084 and so on.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Hi, guys.

Here is the scan:

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/150085.gif

I think that there is no doubt that the report here states 1500?5, but I agree that it is probably a typo, and that the most likely correct WNr is 150?5.

Hopefully some other source will be able to clear this up...

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

That's probably a better explanation/interpretation. Fits better chronologically as well as there are other losses from that series during the fall of 43.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Yes, we have to accept that even in original documents there occasionally are typos and other errors.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Yes, Jim and Christer are right. There are lots of errors in original documents. I've even found errors in Ultra documents which is scary considering how much reliance was placed on them as a source.

In this case looks like the clerk just hit the "zero" twice.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Yes, obviously.

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

No John, he didn't hit the "zero" twice he mixed up the "5" with the "4" on the typewriter (his fingers were to fast :-)). The 15 0xx - batch were G - 4 trop and not G - 6.

Like I wrote in November/December the II./ JG 53 lost some G - 6 from the 140 0xx - batch ... for example the 140 084 (02.11.43 in the east of Wiener Neustadt) or the 140 088 (30.01.44 near Udine). So the two "zeros" would be correct.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

I agree. My previous respose ended up under Andreas' scan, but was meant for your comment!

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Gentlemen,

I feel that the discussion has somehow drifted away from the actual question that I raised regarding a loss report of an a/c of 3./JG 50. So let us try to return to the original issue.

I have meanwhile established some more facts but have yet to solve the basic problem as to where this loss belonged to. The correct location of the crash was not Kloster Chumb - which doesn't exist but is based on just another typo - but Kloster Kumbd, some 5 km north of Simmern / Hunsrück or 50 - 60 km west of Wiesbaden, the base of JG 50. Next - the reason of this loss was reported as aerial combat in the GQM report but there is another source that stated involuntary ground collision as the reason of the crash.

Now, this seems to leave us with two possibilities - either it was in fact a fatal accident by a pilot of 3./JG 50 crahing into the ground due to bad visibility prevailing that day or it was a loss of III./JG 301, a night fighter Gruppe then sharing its a/c with JG 50 at Wiesbaden. This Gruppe was in action against an RAF raid aiming at Leipzig in the night of October 20th / 21st. The fact that remains is that neither JG 50 nor JG 301 filed a loss return that would have survived to this day at the WASt. in Berlin.

As far as the loss reported by II./JG 53 on December 16th, 1943, is concerned it is quite obvious to me that the GQM report is wrong with respect to the WerkNr.; the correct no. should read 140 085.

So let's concentrate on the loss of Uffz. Paul Ullrich on October 21st, 1943 - any further help would be much appreciated.

Jochen Prien

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

As I'm sure you know, Jochen, the following notes are made to specify that JG 50 aircraft were lost on Wilde Sau operations:

23 Sept 1943: WNr 15625: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 301.
27 Sept 1943: WNr 15409: Flugzeugführer von Stab III/JG 301.
27 Sept 1943: WNr 15551: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 301.
22 Oct 1943: WNr 140066: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 302.

As you probably also know, it was due to the hazardous Wilde Sau missions that Alfred Grislawski had his beautifully decorated rudder removed from his JG 50 Bf 109. Thanks to that - and to lots of other very helpful people - it can now be viewed next to Hermann Graf's rudder in a totally unique display at Technikmuseum Speyer. See this web page:
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/rudderdisplay1.htm
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl...s/HPIM0308.JPG


Keep up the good work, Jochen! Looking forward to the next book in the Jagdfliegerverbände series!

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

Hi, guys.

Sorry mr. Prien, do not want to drift away from your original question here, but just want to make a small point with regards to the consensus on the aircraft from J.G.53:

As long as we do not have further contemporary information with regards to thius airframe, I find that it is dangerous to state that the aircraft was a G-6 with WNr 140 085.

It is definitely possible that the unit reported the wrong aircraft subtype also, and that the record should read Bf 109 G4 15085.

In fact, another aircraft in the same range is reported as being a G-6/trop in the loss records.

So - we have to attach a questionmark with regards to this aircrafts identity in my opinion.

Regarding the missing Namentliche Verlustemeldung at WASt. There is a slight possibility that this could exist in other files, as the routine made it clear that the Namentliche Verlustemeldung auf Vordruck II gem L.Dv.1000 should be sent in 5 copies, to the following instances:

1 x to the Luftflotte using appropriate line of command
1 x to the Wehrmachtauskunftstelle für Kriegsverluste und Kriegsgefangene (we know it as WASt)
1 x to the Ob.d.L.Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.
1 x to R.L.M. L.P.Chefabteilung
1 x to the commanding unit for filing

As it seems it is not at the WASt, the files of the L.P. is most probably the place to look for this needle in a haystack. The chance that you will never find it is of course very high, but I thought I should share this 'Verteiler' to show that the possibility to find relevant records outside of the WASt is there.

If the unit forgot alltogether to file a Namentliche Verlustemeldung, the only thing we will have is this Qu.-Meldung, and the rest of the story must be researched using probably local sources in the area.

I think I should travel by this place next time I go to Germany, usually land at Frankfurt-Hahn, and drive past Simmern on my way south to Freiburg. Do you have the exact geo coordinates for this Kloster Kumbd, mr. Prien? I think I have found it using Google Earth, at 50 deg 1 min 42.60 sec N, 7 deg 31 min 32.13 sec E.

It is of course a longshot, but would local records from this place maybe have information about the incident?

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943
 

A great idea! Although quite commonly used in other fields of recent history research, I have a feeling that this is not used as much as it should be in our field of interest. (With the exception for, of course, southern England & the Battle of Britain.) Local historians often have a great deal of knowledge in such things, but we who write about the history have a tendency to forget such sources. And like the veterans, those people are leaving us right now - so we really ought to hurry up.

I think your initiative is terriffic, Andreas! Are you leaving for Germany soon? I've got a Swedish friend going there in a couple of days, for some business in this field of interest.