Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Can anyone tell me what markings and serials Legrand's Hawk-75 carried in Nov 1942, particularly on the 8th, if possible?
Thanks
Peter

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Hello

Curtis H-75 A-1 n°37 (Matricule X836) manufacturer U.S n°12834,code ?

Shot down by Wildcats and crash landed on 8/11/42

07/09/39

Curtis H-75 A-1 n°50 (Matricule X849) manufacturer U.S n°12847,code "5"

michel

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Thank you again Michel. Your help with these aircraft codes is really appreciated.
A pity there is no 'fuselage' or 'tail' code for his 11/42 aircraft.
I wish to build one of his Hawks with the red and yellow stripes introduced in June 1941. Do you happen to have a code, serial and Matricule for such an aircraft for him?

I did ask once before if there is a good book with this sort of information for French pilots/aircraft, but got no reply from anyone. Can you recommend such a book, or is the information spread out over many?

Thank you again for your wonderful help.
Peter

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

To my knowledge,a book according to your wishes is still to be written.Some information can be found in articles,magazines.....etc.

By the way while searching,I found this about his plane:

25/09/39 to 25/06/40
Curtis H-75 A-1 n° 1 (Matricule X800) manufacturer U.S 12798 code "4 white" on tail.

michel

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Michel

Can I have your source/sources for the detailed info above, please?

No 37 is not listed as lost in any of my sources (MAW Vol 3 and Les Curtiss H-75). The latter claims it was last identified with a training unit at Kasba-Tadla after it was repaired from its accident on 29.1.1941.

Not really my topic, but I would also be interested to know how you link André Legrand to a particular aircraft? Has his log book survived so it is possible to see which aircraft he flew each day?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Hi Stig,
The overall summary table in "Les Curtiss H-75" is a little confusing, as it doesn't indicate the history of No37 after arrival at the training squadron. The text about GC II/5, on p332, does indicate that Legrand was flying No37 on 8/Nov; as does the losses summary on p335.


Regards, ...geoff

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Thanks for the comments, guys, and thanks again Michel for the time you put into getting an answer for me.
Peter

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Ahh, indeed so Geoff

Even MAW 3 lists him flying it when making a claim that day. However MAW 3 does not say he baled out in it, as the Curtiss book does.

Odd isn't it? The French book says on one page Hawk No 37 was transferred to a training unit and on another it was lost 8 Nov 1942 with GC II/5....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Hi Stig

Precisely (les curtis h-75),see page 332,333,335.
For those who can't,I quote:

8/11/42
Page 332
"all available pilots take off:Cne Reyné (n°209),Cne Huvet(n°333)Lt Legrand(n°37).....etc"

Page 333
"......Lt Legrand shot up....crash landed,the Curtis n°37 ends there his career."

Page 335
"n°37,escadr.3,last flight 08/11/42,crash landed after a fight air"

MAW vol.3 is a very good book (I got it),but often with errors,omissions as in the present case (with french facts for exemple).

About his plane in 1939/1940 (n°1),source Christophe Cony and Alain Coste,french magazine hs n°25.

Michel

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Thanks Michel

Odd that the Curtiss book says two different things. Maybe the author forgot to update the table on page 407?

HS 25, is that the one about the French Aces? I don't have it anyway.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Oups! sorry,right, it's magazine"avions hs n°25"(exellent) about french "aces"

Re: Markings and serial for Andre Legrand H-75 casablanca 1942
 

Bonjour,

More than twenty years ago, I made extensive reaserches on the « Groupe de chasse » II/5 (1940/1942 periode). I meet and interviewed more than 50 pilots and mechanics (including Legrand himself). I have in my files enough material to write a new book on this unit.

All the H75 of the group II/5 involved in the 8th november combats were wearing the last markings imposed by the german « Commission d’Armistice » to first line aircrafts of the french « Armée de l’Air » : french flag on the rudder, cocardes above and under the wings, blue-white-red strips above and under the wings and red and yellow stripes on the cowling and the tail (no cocarde or white stripe on the fuselage). See examples of this scheme on the planes of the two photos of the page 333 of « Les Curtiss H75 de l’Armée de l’Air » written by Lionel Persyn.

The n°37 was wearing the markings the « sioux » escadrille = the indian head on the fuselage beetween the motor and the cockpit (see photo of the « 12 » page 332 of the same book). The individual code of this plane was white seven. A very fine black strip surrounded the white code number.

Camouflage : all the published profiles I know are wrong.
In fact, the upper surfaces camouflage were brown and green in large strips (without grey). These colors where localy mixed to blend with the semi desertic colors of the of Moroccan landscape. The under surfaces were in light blue (again a localy mixed color, not the official blue-grey color of the french air force).

After its belly landing of the 8th november, the Curtiss n°37 was not repared. It is easy to explain the slight mistake of the page 407 of the same book where it is quoted that this plane was flying again in Kasba-Tatla in 1944/45. The few french Curtiss A4 with Wright motor received serials starting again at one…

At last, I do not want to open a can of worms but I cannot agree when i see that this discussion is in the « Luftwaffe and axis air forces ».
The 8th november the american navy opened the fire and shelled the french ships anchored inside the habor of Casablanca without any negotiation. One of the first pilots of the II/5 who took off told me that when they left the ground they did not know who was attaking the harbor ! They all had the strong feeling that they were facing an agression. The five pilots of the II/5 who were killed that day were just trying to defend and protect their fellow sailors who were beeing killed inside the harbor…

I should be very interested to trade informations or photos related these bad events.

Regards.
RB

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Thanks Rémi

Excellent update!

While being interested in French aviation, and at the same time not being French speaking, has made me make the decision not to aquire every book on the subject. Books about units are among those I don't buy. Sorry about that!

Thanks for explaining the reason for Lionel Persyn making his mistake in the H-75 list. I have now updated it :) Also interesting it still wore the same code (white 7) when it was written off. The book lists that code when it had its accident on 29.1.1941.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Markings and serials for Andre Legrand Vichy H-75
 

Thank you for the detailed information Remi.
At AU$170+ for the book, this is out of my reach. In any case, I don't read French ........
Just to complete the picture of No37, can you please tell me if the number 7 was on the tail or on the fuselage near the tail? I would suspect it would be on the fuselage, but I'd rather not guess if you can help me with this.
Thank you
Peter