B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Hello,
What did the Communist Chinese Air Force use the B24's for ?
I understand that four were defectors from the Taiwanese ( Baughers has three listed) but did the "Reds" have others that had remained in mainland China ?
Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

B-24s were supplied to the Nationalist Chinese forces during World War II. Aside from defectors and captured examples used by the Communist Chinese, it would be helpful to know the source of your information.

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Hello Ed,
Joe Baugher's lists, I have not checked his refs, but expect he has them listed.
And
worldairforces.com
Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Hello,

Here is what Joe Baugher has to say on the CNAF B-24M's:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_33.html

I have checked Baugher's sources - Alwyn Lloyd's, Liberator America's Global Bomber (p.512), provides an identical listing of the 38 B-24M's used by the CNAF, with no further comment. The Ernest McDowell Consolidated B-24D-M (Arco/Aircam, undated & unpaginated) reference has a colour profile of CNAF B-24M 44-42462 and two photographs of CNAF B-24M's. One of the photographs depicts B-24M 44-42462 (actually marked 442462, and directly below the serial there is a similar marking ie - B-24002). The B-24's are in natural metal finish with rudders marked with blue and white horizontal stripes. On the nose of this aircraft is a Mickey Mouse-like (?) figure holding a bomb.

Col.

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Hello,
This is the Joe Baugher list I looked at.

44-42449 ... 44-42548
Consolidated B-24M-35-CO Liberator
MSN 6385/6484
42452 converted to F-7B
42461 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42462 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42468 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42469 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42470 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42472 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42473 damaged in landing accident at Topham Field, Canton Island,
Pacific Apr 23, 1945.
42475 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42476 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42477 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42478/42480 converted to F-7B
42481 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42483 to Chinese Nationalist AF. Defected to Communists in late 1940s.
42484 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42485 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42500 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42501 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42502 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42503 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42505 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42506 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42507 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42508 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42510 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42512 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42513 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42514 to Chinese Nationalist AF as B-24003. Defected to Communists in late 1940s.
42515 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42516 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42520 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42521 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42527 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42528 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42529 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42530 to Chinese Nationalist AF. Defected to Communists in late 1940s.
42531 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42532 to Chinese Nationalist AF
42533 to Chinese Nationalist AF

And there are two that I missed, :(
44-42270 and 44-42276.


Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

From "Red Wings Over the Yalu" by Xiaoming Zhang, some snippets of B-24 action in the Chinese Civil War:

Jun 26, 1946
Liu Shanben (American-trained pilot) defected to Yan'an in a B-24. The bomber was destroyed in a Nationalist air raid two months later.
(...later: oops. typo. 1946 - as corrected above - not 1945 as originally typed. )

May 24, 1949
Nationalist B-24s raid Beijing, prompting the PRCAAF to organise an air defence squadron of 6 captured and refurbished P-51s.

Feb 6, 1950
Between Oct 1949 and Feb 1950, Shanghai sustains 26 air raids. On 6 Feb 1950, 14 Nationalist aircraft (B-24s and B-25s) raid the city in its most serious attack. More than 1400 people were killed in the wide damaging raid on powerplant and shipyard areas.

May 11, 1950
Russian MiG-15s, recently deployed for air defence, claim a successful night interception - aided by searchlights - on a Nationalist B-24. (Near Shanghai?) Nationalist records note the loss of a B-24 on 11 May.


...geoff

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Thank you Geoff for the book reference and details of combat.
But it still leaves the question unanswered, were there four and what did the "Reds" use them for ?
Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Alex,
I suspect that they didn't use them very much at all - lack of trained crews perhaps being just one significant reason.

Lennart Andersson's book "A History of Chinese Aviation" notes a US Intelligence report indicating the Chinese Communist Forces had control/access of the following on 1-April-1949:
- three B-24s, three B-25s, nine Mosquitos, one P-47, eight P-51s and a number of transports and trainers.

The first Chinese Communist unit was formed in July 1949, consisting of:
- six P-51Ds, two Mosquitos and two PT-19s.

Soviet aircraft (Po-2, Yak-18 trainers, Yak-12, La-9 and La-11) would arrive in late 1949.

It would be interesting to see when each of the B-24 defections occurred. Some of the aircraft may have been sitting around for some years and not in serviceable condition by the time anyone on the Communist side even considered using them. (Not really in the Peasant Revolution manner to bomb cities; and not sure if 1 B-24 would have much effect on a large widespread army in the field?)


...geoff

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

http://russiancouncil.ru/upload/avianoak111.jpg


No B-24s in the linked photo, but most of the other types on the list are present. Anyone's guess, though, as to how many of these aircraft are actually serviceable or operational.


...geoff

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Thank you Geoff,
Details and photo link are most welcome.
Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

A snippet more info from Richard Bueschel's book "Communist Chinese Air Power":
- in May 1946, three unmarked fighters of Japanese origin strafed a Nationalist armored train north of Mukden. (Bueschel suspected the pilots were Japanese - "...is little question the pilots were Japanese, for the Chinese did not yet have pilots of their own capable of handling such high-performance aircraft." This comment obviously discounts the possibility of Nationalist defectors.)
- the Chinese Civil War "formally" recommenced in July 1946, despite frequent skirmishes and a Nationalist offensive which almost defeated the Communist forces in 1946. This offensive was curtailed by a US sponsered cease-fire on 6-June-1946.
- The June cease-fire almost ended when the Nationalists demanded the return of the first "acquired" B-24. The Communists claimed the pilot had defected to Yenan (Yan'an). The Nationalists claimed the bomber had run out of fuel from Chengtu.
- In August, the Nationalists raided Yenan with six aircraft and destroyed the B-24.

As to the question of defector or fuel-outage; "Red Wings Over The Yalu" notes that the pilot of the first B-24 defection - Liu Shanben - was later the commander of the 10th Aviation Division and led the bombing raid on the South Korean intel-post on Taehwa-do Island on 30 November 1951.

...geoff

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Many thanks Geoff for the extra info, I must see if the Local Library can get the book for me.
Thank you
Alex

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

Gentlemen,

The Chinese Nationalist pilots and crew members must have been well trained by United States Air Force advisers on how to handle the B-24s and B-25s and used them in bombing missions.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: B24 use by Red Chinese ?
 

The following book is expensive but should be useful.


War Wings: The United States and Chinese Military Aviation, 1929-1949

https://www.amazon.com/War-Wings-Mil.../dp/0313320047