Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Attachment 16651


It is a composite of several other photos. Retouched and edited to look like a single seater. Quite poorly done too. You might want to get in touch with eBay... ;)

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

I am increasingly seeing carefully copied photos appearing again and again on eBay. Caevat emptor!

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

I am curious what leads you to make this claim? All you have to work with here is a grab of a lo rez, watermarked image from the ad.

BTW, I ask out of curiosity only. I have no involvement with the buyer or seller..

Mark Proulx

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Attachment 16661

Below is the original donor image (Reveresed) for the entire engine nacelle and wing on the eBay composite. The wing has been distorted to fit the new perspective of the composite. Underwing cross angle edited to suit. Nacelle has had the original shadows "dodged" to remove and new shadows more befitting to the light source on the composite "burnt" in for effect. Other details have been ironed out, other minor details added. The author knows what to add and where. Suspicious and odd lighting in this area of the composite.

Attachment 16662

The rear of the single-seater canopy is non-existent. As annotated in the image above, the existing two-seater canopy framing from the original image remains. The bump on the underside of the rear fuselage is where a section of donor image has been spliced onto the composite, thus not a perfect match.

Also, the odd section at the rear trailing edge of the rudder. There is no reason for a straight vertical panel and change to camouflage pattern at this location. I believe the donor image was cropped at this point and the creator of the composite has "filled in" the rear of the rudder.

Below is a quick and dirty composite of the original eBay auction and the nacelle/wing area section of the Me262 WNr.111857 image. Nacelle and wing match perfectly in size and proportion, albeit with the same distortion at the wing as used in the eBay image.

Attachment 16663

All of the above is entirely possible in Photoshop to anyone who has some artistic knowledge and the necessary Photoshop skills. All lighting, shadows and other details can be edited to create a convincing fake. These kinds of edits, techniques and skills are commonplace in any Photography restoration studio. The guy who created the eBay composite is not a pro. Certain sloppy areas show this to be the case. You do not need the high-res original to see such errors. The low-res eBay version is sufficient for the above observations.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

1/ A lot of work when it was enough to scan a "real" picture and add the thunderbolt. Don't you think so ?
A piece of cake for a professional as described in you comment.
...
2/ Do all members of LGR agree with that?
3/ Amazing situation when knowing the buyer is most probably member of LRG. :)
4/ What about the two other Me262 photos sold by same seller respectively sold for 2310 and 2810 Euros; Fakes too ?

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

1.) An existing, largely unedited photo would be well known, thus easily spotted by experts of the type. No?
2.) Other members had pointed it out as a strong possibility of being a fake before I even looked at it in any depth today.
3.) Who knows? The initial fake claims occurred on the forum 6 days prior to the auction ending. So any members and possible buyers should have been aware of the suspicions.
4.) What about them? They are not the image in question. Can you not see what I have pointed out in the above image then?

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Honestly, I don’t see the claimed two-seater canopy framing, but just a completely normal A-1a canopy plus the pitot tube.

The area near the trailing edge if the landing flap is nothing to worry about either. The top part of the engine nacelle was riveted to the nacelle in that area. See e.g.

https://goo.gl/images/FXdqwS
or
https://goo.gl/images/KkGrof

So, what else? A shot taken of a similar (not the same!) angle as a later shot of another Me 262? Not that uncommon. I have probably a dozen others I could offer that were taken from the same angle. That doesn’t make the photo a fake.

You have not convinced me. Sorry.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

PS: I reread your comments and realized that you were referring to the rudder and not the landing flap.

The rudder looks to me completely normal. It was an early production Me 262 with a navigation light behind plexiglass in the lower corner of the rudder. Therefore, you can see through this section.

Also, note that the aircraft is carrying only two MK 108 indicated by the single MK 108 belt feed instructions on the nose. Also matching very well early production Me 262.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Hello,

the "remnants of Me262B two seater canopy framing" is in fact the pitot tube, which is on the correct plae (left wing).

I know of two photos of the two seater Me262 "B3+SH" with a lighning on the nose, but the angle of view is different to thé one in the "fake" photo.

In contrary to the two seater "B3+SH", the nose tip of "B3+(yellow)AL" is not only white, but yellow with a white ring. All that fits to an early plane of 3.KG54.

So not suspicious to me

Regards, Karl

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Unfortunately, I personally know of an instance where thousands of dollars were added to the price of actual artwork sold at a live auction. It was an animation cel with a production background. My friend pointed out to the auctioneer that it was not a production background. They disagreed. Later, it turned out the background was found to not be a production background. In a similar case, an uninformed buyer did not realize the background was also not original. In the first case, there was a refund, in the second, no refund. The buyer did not understand the rather arcane wording in the auction catalog.


In the case of historical photos, I tend to stay away from certain sellers who appear to be selling post-war or 'archive' photos, but in this case, I cannot see how some buyers can be educated. In the case of a photoshop composite, one needs to look very carefully. I have a book that includes information about photo manipulation. It is sad but when something reaches a certain price, forgers move in.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

hi,
when everything was done in photoshop, then we might have to compare the me262b-photo with the "fake"-photo. maybe -if it is a fake - the guy who created it, took the thunderbolt from the me262b and put it into the new photo?!?
but nearly all me262-photos have already published. so, this one must be a new one, which he didn't sell but used it for creating his fake... very strange, isn't it?...
all the best
jim

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

That dent in the front of the cowling looks pretty conclusive to me. What are the odds that the machine at Innsbruck and and this "new" Me 262 would have indentical damage?

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Good catch. Also notice the vegetation ahead the engine nacele, it´s the same...

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

What dent? I only see a dent on the Innsbruck photo. Just in case that you are comparing the 3rd photo in post #4 with the eBay photo: that photo was created by Aviart to demonstrate that the Insbruck photo and the eBay photo are similar and that he could create that photo with Photoshop himself. It is not the photo sold at eBay. The photo at eBay does not have any dent in the cowling.

To me the vegetation looks completely different. On one photo there is tall grass, on the other mainly soil.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

My mistake.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Interesting that this one also sports a white spot/flash on the lower point of the rudder.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

....but this many Euros for one photo??????

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

I know of people who don't have as much information, or experience, as is available here. There are - and I've never been there - people with a lot of money who fail to research what they are buying.


Take the word provenance and reputation. If a well-known auction house is selling something expensive, potential buyers would like to know the 'chain of custody' of the item or collection of items. I know an estate buyer who purchases anything of value from homes that the heirs do not know how to sell themselves. They agree on a percentage of the sale. So much to him and so much to the heirs. Since he has a good reputation and can show a written inventory of where the items came from, he can show provenance. Sadly, I've heard the following from some dealers: "It's worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for it."

Even if, someday, I had the money to purchase something valued at $500.00 or more, I'd do the research.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

I couldn’t agree more with your line of thinking, edwest2. Provenance is paramount in all cases.

Marc

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Bonjour,
I just would like to say that I agree with Roger Gaemperle : after a careful examination of the three low resolution scans of the three photos of 262 sold at the same time by this seller, to my mind these three photos are true unknown photos of 262.
Best regards.
RB

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Photo is the proof of German anti gravity testing. Aircraft is siting on the nose wheel only as main LG seems retracted?

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

I did the same mistake...

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

See other photos. The remaining two parts of the tricycle landing gear are usually hidden by the engines and upper part of the landing gear doors depending on the angle of view.

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

According to my increasingly unreliable memory the lightning flash marking was applied to Czech Me 262s after the War's end - not so much captured as inherited!

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

For sure that is only the pitot tube that is being mistaken for a canopy part.

The first production Avia S-92 had a similar lightning bolt...but not "exactly" the same.

Fake or not, whoever dropped €3730 on a photo probably needs psychological help...

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

There is also a benefit in such from time to time astronomical high auction results.
It is a motivation for some people to dig for old photographs and show us a scan for free...

My thoughts, Karl

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Don't say that .. It's a friend of us ! The same who, recently, bought a Bf109K-4 picture at 1200 Euros
;)

Re: Who dropped €3730 on this fake Me 262 eBay auction?
 

Good news, everyone! Read this...

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/0...-airfield.html