Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

G.B. is a most honorable fighter pilot IMHO. He was doing his duty, meaning flying huge numbers of missions (first fighter pilot with >1.000), and even during this exhasuting kind of "working" he had a lot of success, meaning kills. Just as I understood this, I became curious who took him out of war for 4 months:

He was severly wounded on 31st of May 1944, when II./JG52 was based in Bessarabia. It is said to have been a DF with Airacobras & on the same day, JG52 had 2 more pilot losses. Can anyone identify the soviet unit?

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

OK, let me at least state that he was not shot down by Pokryshkin, as has been suggested in various sources.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Impossible to identify the exact pilot who claimed Barkhorn. Too many claims against too little losses.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

I guess Mr Christer may know the who shot down Barkhorn, and he would keep this secret until his later volumn of "black cross red star" published

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

I don't think so. It is impossible completely because of the high overclaiming ratio in 9 GIAD and 205 IAD for that day.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

That's correct.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

There must have been quite some aerial battles.

Barkhorn claims three on that day (Aira, Il-2, Jak-9). JG52 altogether claims 62(!) kills on that day, nearly all being Airacobras and Il-2. 16 of these claims again are issued by Wilhelm Batz from Stab II/JG52. That's really a lot. Additionally, SG2 claims 13 kills and NAGr.14 three. So, Luftwaffe in sum claims ca. 80 A/C shot down.

Was all this over the area of Targul-Frumos? All claims are in Lw/Wehrmacht map-location 78_5,6,7,8_xx, some "near AF "B."" which might mean Beltsy aka Balti, by then a soviet airbase again.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Definitely! It was the Battle of Iasi. One of the Luftwaffe's last victories in an air battle.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

>Beltsy aka Balti

Beltsy and Balty = are two different locations.

>Iasi

Yassy.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

>Was all this over the area of Targul-Frumos?

All in all 5th Soviet Air Army lost 156 a/c in May (33 Yak-1, Yak-7b and Yak-9D, 12 La-5, 65 P-39, 8 Pe-2, 28 Il-2 - 98 pilots, 4 navigators and 28 gunners were lost), including 121 combat losses.

On May 30 - 36 a/c were shot down for all reasons, on May 31 - 34 a/c.

So, it's just a matter of overclaiming - 1:3 ratio - quite standard for 1944.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Hi Andrey,

Beltsy / Balti: oops... I confused something :o . Is it true that both AF's were soviet territiry by then?

Also, interesting figures! Nevertheless, 78claims vs. 34losses would be a 2:1 overclaim ratio. I know, Flak should also be taken into account... ;) .

Does anyone know the claims from the VVS side for that timeframe?

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Could Mr. Bergström defined, what is it victory ? More plane shot down ? Air superioty, that allowed the ground forces complete their job ?

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

>Also, interesting figures! Nevertheless, 78claims vs. 34losses would be a 2:1 overclaim ratio. I know, Flak should also be taken into account... ;) .

78/34=2,3

So, if you will really get into account flak losses, my estimation will not be too far from true.

26 by fighters + 8 by flak = 34 would be enough.

Though the ratio figthers/flak losses is estimated for VVS in 1944 as 50%/50% most often.


>Does anyone know the claims from the VVS side for that timeframe?

In period of May 30 - June 8: 398 claims in air combats.

For further details see the article of Dmitriy Khazanov "Battle over Yassy. The defeat of the last Luftwaffe offensive on East", Aviamaster aviation magazine, #4/199, pp. 7-32.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Cool! I am curious to read that article ;) .

Concerning overclaim:
SG2+JG52 reported 85 losses altogether for teh whole months of June... if one puts this in relation to the 400claims... OK, there were otehr units as well, but these two were the most active...

Feelingwise I'd say that the Luftwaffe was not really able to control the airspace over this battlefield... best indicator for this would be the number of flown missions per day IMHO.

But this is only preliminary feedback, first I read that article, then I know a bit more.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Let's not forget that the Rumanians were there, too. After all, the air battle was fought mostly over Rumanian territory!
The ARR fighters claimed several Soviet airplanes on May 30 and 31 (as well as suffered some losses), not mentioning the flak.

Beltsy and Balti refer to the same town. The former is the Russian, while the latter the Rumanian name.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Now, was it victory or defeat for the Luftwaffe? :)

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

In Germany then, they used to say: "We win until the downfall" :rolleyes: .

Thanks for clarification concerning "Balti".

Yes, for suer the ARR was also present with all its bombers, attackers and a big part of its fighters... but now we are already far off topic :D .

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Balta(with diclination Balty) and the Beltsy is not the same town. Balta is the city in the Odessa distrikt in the Ukrain and Beltsy is the moldavian city 120 km North from capital Chisinau.
Or more then one Balta exist ??

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Yes, Denes, nevertheless, they are not the same:

Balta:
http://baltatown.narod.ru/

Beltsy:
http://www.beltsy.md/index.php

Kalender, do yo mean Kishinyov by Chisinau?

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Hello Andrey,

Kishinyov = Chisinau, capital of Moldavian

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

encarta.msn.com says

"Map of Beltsi [Bălţi], Moldova",

so Beltsy and Balti is the same. FULL STOP :p .

Anyway, there is another place called Balta ca. 150km W of our Balti, but definitely this was not the target of german Reccons by then. So, the AF of "B" was the one of Balti imho. Or maybe Botosani, but atm I don't know wether this was soviet territory by 31.05.44.

in June 1941, 55.IAP with a well-known guy called Pokrshkin was based in... Beltsi aaaah Balti. He came back 3 years later... and now the circle is closed ;) .

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

>Map of Beltsi [Bălţi], Moldova",

>so Beltsy and Balti is the same. FULL STOP

Na, na, na.. not so easy. :)

As far as I see [Bălţi] - is the transcription. I suppose "ă" reads as "e" and "ţ" reads as "ts", "ц". So its just a true trascription.

Indeed as far as I know Romanians and local jews called the place as Balts=Бэлц.

Bălţi = Бэлци. Beltsy = Бельцы.

Anyway that was a Russian town, at least in 1944, so it called Beltsy. And Kishinyov is Kishinyov.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

No. "ă" reads more like "oe", or "ö", like Schröder.

Anyhow, Bălţi and Balta are different towns. Beltsy is calledBălţi in Rumanian.

No. In 1944, that city - along with Bessarabia - was part of Rumania, so the Rumanian name was the official one. Things, of course, changed rapidly, so from 1945 the official name reverted to the Russian one.

Almost. :)
Kishinyov in English transliteration is actually Kishinev.

Here is the map I drew, published in my book on the Rumanian air force, where many dual (or triple) names are listed, including Beltsy/Bălţi.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/189...iasmall5xn.jpg

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

Talking of Beltsy/Bălţi, here is a photo of a MiG-3 captured in that area in 1941, being hauled away:

http://www.og12a.de/soldat51a.jpg

I am wondering which VVS unit might had this fighter belonged to?

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

right map
http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Karlenko/YUF.jpg

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

To add yet another pair of photos taken in the same area, here is the burning wreck of a Ju 52, reportedly destroyed on 'Balti' airfield.

http://www.fotobethge.de/bilderebay/L14066-8.jpg
[Source: eBay]

P.S. To Admin., I suggest to split this topic in two.

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

This MiG-3 was reportedly found also on Balti airfield.

http://www.fotobethge.de/bilderebay/L12066-43.jpg
[Source: eBay]

Re: Who shot down G. Barkhorn?
 

55.IAP incl. A.I.Pokryshkin was there on 22-06-41. 4., 146., 8.IAP were also in this district, but different AF's.

It is well possible that some MiG's never left transport boxes before Axis captured them.