Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Does anyone have access to the logbooks of either Heinz Marquardt or Kurt Tanzer?

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Del,

Heinz Marquardt's log book was destroyed when he was shot down by F/Lt Peter Cowell over Lake Schwerin on 1st May 1945. It was in his rucksack stowed behind him in the cockpit.

David

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Del

David published a chapter on Marquardt, who was thought to have been killed on 1st May 1945 by his comrades. Tanzer is a very obscure pilot, wounded in the Spring of 1943 he seems to not return to combat until 1945 with IV./JG 51, though he was wounded only in a hand. Both get mentions in another IV./JG 51 pilots flugbuch, just one small mention for Tanzer, but it proves he was actually flying in 1945, and mentions as witness to several of Marquardt's claims and the number of each claim.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

This is what DeZeng and Stankey say about Kurt Tanzer:
TANZER, Kurt. (DOB: 01.11.20 in Moscow /USSR (or Reichenberg?)). (R, DKG). 1940 entered the Luftwaffe. 18.03.42 assigned to 12./JG 51 on completion of training. 02.08.42 Gefr., 12./JG 51.
13.09.42 Uffz., 12./JG 51. 16.12.42 Uffz., 12./JG 51. 05.01.43 Uffz., 12./JG 51. 06.01.43 Fw., 12./JG 51. 15.02.43 awarded Ehrenpokal. 10.04.43 Fw., 12./JG 51. 06.05.43 Ofw., 12./JG 51 severely WIA -Fw 190 A-4 (Blue 7) damaged in combat with Il-2s S of Orel. 24.06.43 Fw., awarded DKG, 12./JG 51.
11.43 returned to operations following convalescence and assigned to Stabsstaffel/JG 51. 05.12.43 Ofw.,
awarded Ritterkreuz for prior service in 12./JG 51. 1944 trf to JFS 6. 06.44 trf to Stab/Jagdfliegerführer 6 and then Jagdfliegerführer Ostpreussen. 02.45 promo to Lt.d.R. 10.02.45 Lt., appt Staka 13./JG 51.
02.05.45 Lt., 13./JG 51 lost Fw 190 D-9 (White 1). Credited with 723 combat missions and 143 air victories (perhaps only 128?). Post war worked in a chemical factory. 16.06.57 joined the Bundesluftwaffe and was a Major by 1960. †25.06.60 in a T-33 crash in the Baleric Islands in the westernMediterranean during bad weather.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Interesting ..... Both the Kracker database and the Luftwaffe Career Summaries say Marquardt was shot down in combat with a Spitfire and became a US POW. Died 2003. Is there additional information?
Peter

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Johannes & Co,

is it known who was the first to proclaim a Tanzer score of >100 ? And why ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

If my memory serves me correctly Tanzer got a cheap Ritterkreuz for being wingman to Oskar-Heinz Bär and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, and after only thirty-five Russian "kills". Forget the 128 or 143, more like a minimum of thirty-five, but likely to have claimed additional Russian aircraft during 1945 having returned to combat on 10th February 1945. During the time between his wound on 6th May 1943 until 4th November 1943 he seems to have been recovering, then was with Jafü6 and Stab Jafü Ostpreussen, doing what I cannot say, but combat unlikely.
Just why such a large total has been attributed for him is hard to say, but no reason why it cannot be wrong, think of Günther von Fassong, and Franz-Walter Woidich attributed with 110, yet he himself has only eighty-two on his abschüsse list, and eighty-one are found on the mikofilms, which don't prevail into 1945 when he get a single claim, it is likely that Woidich didn't even know he had been attributed 110 claims......likewise Tanzer.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

this in an interesting topic.
Can be hope for a publication of you about those aces who have been falsely attributed 100+ kills for various reason (but not due to overclaiming) ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Michael

I could put something together. There are two aces that are likely to/or should join the "100" club, Paul-Hinrich Dähne and Ulrich Wohnert, Dähne almost certainly, in fact the total for him has been suggested to be "128", I have found the first ninety-nine, but then he was active after the mikrofilms end, Wohnert also active to the end, but some way off the "100" mark when the mikrofilms end.

Others included "unconfirmed" in their "100", some have the 100+ total that just cannot be accounted for.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Johannes,

Please correct me if I have it wrong, but to my eye it seems you already covered this aspect with your four-part "biographies and victory claims" series that you co-authored with John Foreman.

I say that because you did the noble thing of only including the victory claims that you could find in the microfilms and kept speculation to a minimum, so it's already clear that Tanzer's "accepted total" is highly questionable.

In all fairness, surely a 2nd edition of that (already quite good) series would be all that's needed?

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Johannes
do you know further details about Ulrich Woehnert' s activities in April/May 1945? He finally flew the Me262 and had to make a forced landing (document shown in one of the Japo-publications not at my hands at the moment) .With II./JG7?
Regards, Karl

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Petr Kacha's website keeps silent about Wöhnert's April/May45 activities but mentions that some sources have credited him with at least 100 victories.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/wohnert.html
Cheers,
Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

Second edition is not on the cards, however a "Book 5" to the original series was planned at publication to cover corrections and additions. The corrections would be typo errors mainly, but also just plain mistakes, additions would be additional aces, but also additional information to those previously mentioned, this would be largely information gathered from flugbuchen covering the timeline outside the microfilm scope, and dates of Birth/death. However my co-author John Foreman has not been well for a few years. Whereas the concept of the book was my own, John is more literate, and would research the deaths of the pilots in combat, and often forward a name to the guy who nailed the ace. John is also much more informed about the Western front, and has published many books about this front, in fact he has little interest about the Eastern front, but has been to many Luftwaffe re-unions, and meet many Eastern-front aces, John still remains a great enthusiast.
As we say in the introduction in our "Book 1 A-E", our books only make sense if you ignore all that came before, basically John always said that anything published is regarded as "gospel", and is "cast in stone", i.e regarded as fact. The most accurate work I have encountered generally is Jochen Prien's later works, his earlier works had a lot of speculation i.e sometime times/dates were known, but not the claimant, Jochen did a good job of working-out who these claimants were, not is was not always accurate, however his later work does use the mikrofilms, however that for II./JG 2 in Africa is somehow corrupted(excel sort?), also Bernd Barbas's work on specifically JG 52 and Gerhard Barkhorn is almost faultless.
Basically we know more fact now than years ago.

I'll ask John if the "Book 5" is still on the cards.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Johannes,
Sorry to hear about your co-author. This series of books has been of great use to me and I have only ever noticed one major error within them - the entry on Karl-Heinz Nebel needs a little work, along with a friend of mine, we interviewed him in about 2003/2004 and he told us about the wound he suffered and so on.

I would really welcome a 5th volume of corrections and updates and would buy it as a matter of priority.

A small (...hopefully not silly...) question if I may:
I could not find Hans-Werner Renzow listed in the series, would volume 5 correct that or is there a good reason for his omission?

Regards
Nick

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

I wish your partner a good recovery and look to a possible vol5 of your monumental opus.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

Thanks for your comment, and good wishes for John, I will pass them on.

Wish regards to Wohnert I was not aware that he flew with JG 7, also the best information I have abou his death was that it was suicide. Loose track of him in Autumn 1944.

Regarding Renzow

I have his total at four plus:-

4th November 1942 P-40 40km South of El Derna u/c
15th November 1942 B-24 60km North of Bengasi 1530 hrs u/c
30th July 1943 P-40 into the sea, 50km ENE Lecce 0945 hrs 2500 metres Nr.1
5th April 1944 B-24 25km WSW of Targsonul-Nou 1425 hrs 6500 metres Nr.2
31st May 1944 P-38 30km SE Ploesti 1005 hrs 6000 metres Nr.3
31st May 1944 P-38 20km ENE Pipera 1012 hrs 5000 metres Nr.4

He may very well have made further claims over Russian aircraft during 1945. He was born on 1st June 1921, could still be alive.

With Nebel I would be grateful for any enlightenment. All I have is born 6th December 1920, could still be alive. Twelve confirmed Eastern claims between 3rd December 1942 and 20th October 1944, again very likely to have claimed further Russian aircraft in the last months of the war.

Regarding the fifth volume. I was speculating about publishing ALL those who claimed between one and four confirmed "victories", however was advised that it wouldn't sell. But I would like to have a "possible ace" chapter, and do biographies like Renzow who is likely an ace, also have a list of all claimers, some 7600 Luftwaffe pilots, this would give mention to the smaller people who often did as much suffering as the aces, and isn't somebody who claims three viermots more worthy of a mention than an Eastern ace in single figures?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

I also wish John a speedy recovery. In a possible book 5, I would appreciate a description of the process from the paper-work completed by the pilot (or clerk?), to the possible award of an abschuss to a pilot, and some comments upon the loss of the original documents in a bombing-raid, IIRC in 1943, and the work undertaken to recreate the lost material.

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Johannes,

Christopher Shores published a similar project for the RAF pilots with 2-4 kills.
https://www.amazon.de/Those-Other-Ea...ose+other+aces
Was it a flop ?

All the best to you,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Johannes,
Regarding Karl-Heinz Nebel:
Wounded in the thigh by Flak in October 1944, for which he blamed Brendel. He said Brendel ordered them to cross the front lines at an in-advisably low altitude that left them vulnerable. Was recovering in Koethen (his home town) when the war ended, so your comment of him having possibly more victories is (respectfully) incorrect as is the notation that he is possibly still alive. He passed away in 2008.

Hope that helps somewhat and thanks very much for the advice on Renzow.

As for being told that a book of "less-than-aces" would not sell, I strongly beg to differ. I would be genuinely happy to buy it and glad to own it...

Nick

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Dear Michael and Johannes,
thank you for your answers relating to Lt Ulrich Woehnert.
In the Podzun-Pallas book "Die Grünherzjäger. Bildchronik des Jagdgeschwaders 54" I found a picture of Lt Woehnert captioned as Staffelkapitän 5./JG54, together with other officers around Hauptmann Findeisen, new Kommandeur of II./JG54 since February 1945.
I think that - similar to Lt Norbert Hannig (still with 6./JG54 in Kurland in March 1945 and then Staffelkapitän of 6./JG7) - Lt Woehnert was trained on the Me262 at the beginning of April 45.

Fact is that Woehnert bailed out from a Me262 on 18.04.1945 near Prague.

According to the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries of deZeng/Stankey Wöhnert died on 14. August 1947 of pneumonia in Wittenberg.

KR Karl

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

is it known who was the first author to indicate a Tanzer score of >100 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Toliver & Constable's Horrido, and
Aders & Held's Jagdgeschwader 51 "Moelders" (1984) are the oldest books that I can find that state that figure.

I suspect the latter is quoting the former

Toliver & Constable took a lot of licence with the figures they quoted for Tanzer and among others: Boehm Tettelbach (40 victories), Douglas Pitcairn (14 victories) and Rollwage (whose tally of "102" with 44 Viermots was eventually debunked by Prien)

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Hector

Rollwage himself told my friend Bernd Barbas that he didn't know where the forty-four "viermots" came from, or his total of 102, possible the points system again. With Boehm-Tettelbach the forty is more like four(viermots)….can't blame the points system for that.

Strange that Wohnert should end up a Russian prisoner when the jet pilots seemed to escape this ordeal. Guess the only way to prove this guy in the hundred club would be a 1945 flugbuch.

Basicallythe Toliver/Constable book is so riddled with contradictions, errors ,typo errors and non-facts that ALL must be ignored if your looking for facts. Jochen Prien(later work), Erik Mombeek,Don Caldwell(JG 26) and Bernd Barbas's(JG 52 and related) books are 99+% fact. John and myself checked our work against Prien's later book claims, and apart from II./JG 2 match 99.9% or the time.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Cheers Johannes,
But please, Nick is my first name and I prefer to be informal if it does not offend you.

As for Rollwage,
71 claims of which 14 are counted as Viermots, as per Prien...
102 (as quoted by Toliver and Constable) minus 71 = pretty much the total of the "remaining" viermots. So my theory (laugh at it or agree with it as you see fit...) is that Toliver & Constable took it upon themselves to award him the tally of 102 based on a misread of his total of 14 Viermots. 14 was mistaken for 44, and the difference was added on to his known tally of 71....

Regards
Nick

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Guys,

From what I can find, the first edition of Tolliver’s & Constables ‘Horrido’ was published in 1968, which to me, make’s Obermaier’s book on Ritterkreuztragers that was first published in 1966 the more likely original source of many of the quoted scores. Though both books have been republished several times since, there seems to have been no real amendments – so the age of these works should give some indication as to reliability of data especially when many records didn’t surface until many years later.

Anyway, if you read the Obermaier’s book carefully, in many cases he uses such words as at least, possible, probable and about, which unfortunately, several authors have since taken various liberties of his works to quote these as definitive. (It also has several obvious errors including typos.)

For example, using Johannes example of Fassong, Obermaier stated that Fassong had “at least 75 but he probably gained about 136” – so nearly every list since is quoting 136 not the 75. Depending on who’s research you follow, we now know that around 60-70 can be identified as confirmed in various documents. It is possible that he had 75 confirmed claims and that is probably the correct figure. I’m not sure where Obermaier got 136 from – maybe someone quoted this but as Obermaier didn’t have any hard evidence, he then said probably – who knows? I have not seen 136 quoted in any document prior to Obermaiers 1966 book. The 136 total that is used has no hard proof except what is quoted in Obermaiers book as probable?

As to Tanzer, I find the quoted total in Obermaier’s work very interesting. Obermaier states that Tanzer received the RK at 35 victories which is in line with recent research. However, he also stated that Tanzer had 143 victories (incl 17 x 4 engined bombers in the west) in 723 missions including 187 fighter bomber sorties. (some sources quote 128 for the East which I think came from this with 143 – 17). I find these numbers are too precise to have been estimates or quoted in here-say – especially the mission totals? As Johannes stated, Tanzer flew operationally from March 42 to May 43 when wounded to make his 35 claims and receive the RK. It’s the claims after this that cannot be supported by recent research. Tanzer recovered from his wounds in November 1943 but had limited opportunity until late in the war, so it’s unlikely that he made 108 claims in the last 3 months of the war. As Tanzer died in a plane crash in 1960, it’s possible but unlikely he was sourced by Obermaier for his book - so all this tend to make me think that some form of written documentation had survived (and was in misinterpreted?). What did Obermaier have to give such precise figures I’d love to know? I have seen no evidence surface to date that would support such figures!

This is not a shot at Obermaier as his work was ground breaking in 1966 – we have learnt a lot since then. The whole point of this is that if we can find Obemaier’s records/notes for his book we would be able to clear up this issue and many more by finding where Obermaier got his information from and how reliable the source would have been!

Regards,

Craig…

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Craig

With regards to von Fassong, guess it proves that Obermaier was not afraid to admit his earlier mistake. I did acquire many of his claim reports, this included one from a JG 51 staffel covered only by the mikrofilms in a time and date type, thus von Fassong's total should be sixty-four, and should not be any more because he was lost only when the mikrofilms cease, not after. Obermaier was also very precise about the total and western/viermot totals of Karl Gratz, but of his 138 confirmed claims only six in the West, and two viermots were amongst them, not seventeen and four viermots……….exactly those also quoted for Tanzer. Actually very often I find the totals tally with Obermaier, but much less achieved in the Western sphere, and viermots often half of those quoted(like Bühligen). Obermaier's work was inspirational and way ahead of it's time...….my childhood bible.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Johannes,

Mr Obermaier's work was your childhood bible ?
It's always interesting to learn who was the idol of an idol.

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Whatever Volume 5 will be about, I'll buy it ;)

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hi Guys

Sorry Nick about the Hector, must have just caught your surname before typing.
I am flattered that a fifth volume would be well accepted. As I say John Foreman is seventy-six now and doesn't feel he can squeeze a fifth volume out of himself(certainly not at the moment), but given time and a little coaching I might be able to manage it.
Personally I spent thirty-six year collating the information prior to publication, and worked with John for fifteen years on it, I would send him hundreds if not thousands of amendments/corrections over this period. So for fifteen years I came home from work did some rowing(1000 km per year), ate whilst still sweating, and researched until sleep time, up in the early hours to do more research, before going to work.

Basically I am for the small scoring pilots, so I would personally like to publish additions/amendments to volume one to four aces, I have collated a lot of information not on the mikrofilms since publication, especially 1945. Also would like to do a section on new aces know to me, a section on possible aces i.e not five confirmed claims, but five plus possible, a list of ALL known claimers to myself......some 7600 pilots totalling 66600 confirmed claims. I have just worked on an article with Erik Mombeek about the "points system" and how a claim was actually made paperwork wise and think a section on this may be helpful, this article with Erik also dwelled upon rudder markings and there differing types.
I have had so much help, especially since publication by so many enlightening people who all have my most sincere thanks.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good morning Johannes,

this is heroic.

All the best to you, your project and those who help you,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

It's occurred to me that men like You, John Foreman and Chris Shores are getting 'up there, in years'. What will happen to all those projects when they all get too old to work or worse, pass beyond the veil? Do they and You have younger researchers helping on book projects who can step in & finish the work and 'carry on' the research?


NM

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

NM's Question might be crucial. I have the Impression that most airwar enthusiasts are considerably older than me (36) not to mention the authors.

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

While I am physically considerably older than you---I sure don't act my age!

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Yes, I agree this is a very important issue.
I personally have seen many people - friends and acquaintances - pursue their interests later in life, usually after retirement, only for the fruits of their passion to be crudely disposed of after they pass on to whatever comes next.
The digital age makes this even more a problem. What good is all the researched and accumulated information if it simply disappears or becomes inaccessible once the inevitable has come to pass?
Perhaps the topic is worthy of its own thread, although I'm not sure anyone will be willing to discuss their "succession" plans.
Peter

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Peter,

The issue has certainly occurred to us, speaking as a member of Chris Shores team for at least 33 years, (we started serious work on Above the Trenches in 1985). We have talked about the matter more than once.

In my case the issue is what to do with my book collection, especially if some deserving historian in Europe wishes to acquire it, of how to ship it there. Or would they want all, or only a few of the books out of the 6000 or so!. Then there is what to do with photos, CD's microfilms etc etc. I don't have many microfilms (but I do have a set of the famous claims films) and barely a thousand photos. What people will do who have thousands of microfilms and tens of thousands of photos of Ultra info etc, who knows.

Lastly what to do with what is on our computers. For example if my computer was junked that would lose 70 per cent of the Air 27's for the Mediterranean area, let alone claims and casualty lists etc., Instead of a researcher being able to inherit
the info they would have to bleed to death to buy them. It would be a waste.

The younger historians we are aware of are probably nearer 40 than 30, so who knows how to define young.

My own view is that Societies or Trusts, set up by donations from people who no longer need to worry about money or records, could the way to go, but who wants to do such a permanent task?

Thoughts welcome as this is a very serious issue.

Regards

Russell

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Yes, a tough ask. Shooting from the hip, one vision might be -

First, I think everything must be digitised. Accumulating and storing all the books, photos etc would probably be out of the realms of possibility, and looking forward I doubt people will travel to 'the mountain' as they have in the past to see the information anyway. Hell, I've got friends in their late 70's ordering and reading eBooks from the local libraries using their PC's in the comfort of their own home. The kids nowadays want everything electronic and instant. And I doubt they'll want to pay for it, although selling memberships to whatever is set up might be an option. So the mountain will need to be able to go to the people.

What is set up would become some sort of Legacy to all those who spent immeasurable amounts of their time, sweat, sanity and money to accumulate the information. The details of what and how to set up I'd leave to experts, but I'd say once the information is digitised it could be easily stored and managed. Either like a library with loans, returns etc, or simply as a searchable database or databases.

Payment to those who contribute? Maybe, based on loan-outs, downloads, whatever. Who pays? Dunno. I figure people will only pay for something if it is important to them. To our generation, what happened in WW2 (and other wars) probably has enough importance to entice us to pay for the information. Our children? Probably not. If anything, they'll be more interested in Syria, the coming China wars, WW3.

So if we want the information so painstakingly accumulated to live on, it will probably need to be free. Otherwise you run a real risk that nobody will bother to look at it. What good is it then?

Peter

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good evening,

if my kids show no signs of airwar enthusiasm I will not encourage them because I will rather promote hobbies that improve performance at school and physical fitness. My collection would be difficult to sell. Therefore I will give it to one of my eMail mates, maybe a German because some of my books are in my mothertongue.

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

I'm still very interested in any proof for Kurt Tanzer having or having not scored 128/143 kills.
These are the higher figures indicated in some books:

• Toliver/Constable (1968): 143 kills, 4 four-engined planes
• Musciano (1982): 143 kills
• Aders/Held (1993): 128 kills, 111 with JG51, 17 in the West <=> 4 four-engined planes
• Weal (1995): 143 kills, 126 in the east
• Weal (2001): 143 kills, 126 in the east; 35 at the time of the award of the KC

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

In respect of John Foreman's health, having spoken to him a week or so ago, he seems as well as to be expected mindful of his age. As to old and bold researchers and writers retiring, this is what I have been looking at in respect of a symposium of writers/researchers/historians/publishers in 2019 looking towards the future and helping the 'news kids on the block' so to speak

Re: Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer
 

Hello,

I'm rooting for Mr Foreman's health.
Is he a forum member, too ?

Michael