P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

hello
I was redirected from the WW2aircraftnet forum because maybe I could get better support here. So let's start:

I am looking for information about two P-39 Q that were lost in Switzerland short after WWII has ended. These two Airacobras were flying along the river Rhein on a low level flight on 16. July 1945 (cloudy, bad weather) from (probably) Basel towards the lake of Constance. Near Eglisau they crashed into the hill (Irchel). There has been a story about this accident in the Swiss Newspaper "Tagesanzeiger" in December 2017.

Can anybody give more information about these two aircrafts (escadrilles, colors, armament). The names of the pilots are known as Sgt Francois de Laurens Castelet and Louis Francois Delvolvé they were both killed in the accident. Getting in contact with a Swiss hisotrian I know that one P-39 did have the number 43914 and it had a four blade propeller. Therefore I assume that they were P-39Q versions.

I would like to know as much as possible about these two aircrafts, maybe I will then build them in scale 1:72 as models. It would also be very interesting to know where these Airacobras were come from and what their mission was.
Maybe they were on a routine flight from France to the french occupation zone in southern Germany. According to the sparse information I currently have they could belong to GC II/9 "Auvergne".
I am more familiar with German or English reports about losses and sorties but I assume that these kind of information would also be kept for the French aircraft and their pilots somewhere.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Ueli

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Ueli

The two aircraft are not included in a published list of accidents etc between 8 May to 31 Dec 1945 published by Service Historique de la Défense.

Quite odd indeed with so much information known.

Hope someone else can help you with this one.

Cheers
Stig

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Grüss Gott Ueli


Those two pilots belonged to the GC II/9 Auvergne.


You will find memorial informations for Louis Delvolve here :


http://www.memorialgenweb.org/mobile...0&hauteur=1050


I've found nothing yet for François de Laurens, but don't despair


J Schreiber

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

A little article on page 2 in the newspaper Nouvelliste Valaisan (26 Jul 1945) about the memorial services here: http://doc.rero.ch/record/187760/files/1945-07-26.pdf

Remains were repatriated to France.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

And on page 1 here (http://doc.rero.ch/record/97408/files/1945-07-27.pdf) a picture of the memorial service.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Hallo Ueli


Another press article (Journal de Geneve, 25th July 1945) - see attachment,

I oppened a thread on the French side ( http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforu...p?nummsg=76640 ), and Francois de Laurens Castelet was born in Benquet (dpt of Landes) the 19th March 1920. You will find a photo of Francois de Laurens here : http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforu...p?nummsg=76641


Have you checked at the Kantonspolizei or where their papers are archived ? Knowing Swiss Gründlichkeit, something should exist.

Due to the number of people involved at the ceremonies, it's obvious : an accident report is (or was) somewhere in the French archives (Service historique de la Défense, Vincennes). But access is now complicated for everyone not living nearby.

Regards

J Schreiber

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

François de Laurens-Castelet, born 19 March 1920 at Benquet (Landes), son of Count Joseph de Laurens-Castelet and Christine de Poyferré de Cère.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Hallo Ueli

Have you tried to obtain copies of the documents held by the Swiss Federal Archives about this incident? They can be found with this reference: https://www.swiss-archives.ch/detail.aspx?ID=1751394

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Interestingly, the article in the 'Tagesanzeiger' in first post mentions another French air crash in same vicinity in 1947.


May have been Charles Leroy on 12 March 1947 in Spitfire HF IX (PT844) near Rheinsberg bei Eglisau.


Regards,


Leendert

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

I think it is indeed tricky because of
- the accident wasn't in a combat
- it was not in France or Germany but in neutral Switzerland
- it was after the war ended in Europe (8. May 1945 versus 16. July 1945)

At that time Switzerland still was under the law of war. As the article mentioned it was only a short message given to the press about the two crashes.
Best chances would be to find somewhere the logbooks or the complete history of the GC 2/9 until it dissolves.

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

I totally agree with you jschreiber, there must be some information in one kind of French archives but unfortunately I am not familiar with the way the French keep track of their Air Force or Aircrafts.
I have already done a search in the Swiss Federal Archive at Berne (Bundesarchiv) but the result doesn't help much. There are about eight documents filed there all dealing with the costs of the transfer of the dead pilots.
You won't find any information in the local archives because at that time the military still was ruling even the war was over for about eight weeks or so.

@jschreiber: great that you opened that thread in the French forum. I have found that one a few days ago but I don't understand how it works and I hardly can understand what is written there. So if you can watch what's going on there that would be very kind of you.

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

First of all let me say thank you to all of you. I assumed that my topic had to be approved first and then I will be noticed but things are going the other way round.

I have answered a few question in the answers already. In the meantime I know a little bit more about this two losses.
The two P-39 Airacobras were of the type P39Q-21 (at least the one with SN 443914). And indeed they belong to GC II/9 Auvergne. I got a report from a Swiss historian where this SN is mentioned, it is a report issued by military command. Searching the web I found a french magazine (Aero Journal, No 39) with a description of GC II/9 Auvergne. There is even a photo with exactly that airplane [big luck].
It belongs to the 1ère Escadrille of GC II/9 and was taken around March 1945. At that time GC II/9 was stationed at La Vallon in the southern part of France not far from the Côte d'Azur
(see photo) http://www.uhebeisen.net/media/P39-43914s.jpeg

Regarding my model there are two questions: first the color of the spinner? Usually the P39 of GC II/9 had their spinners painted yellow but on the photo the spinner is quite dark so it might also be red.
Second, the aircraft dosen't cary a big number on the front of the fuselage as a lot of the French fighters did. Either it is a bad photo or it really has no number, at least not when the picture was taken.

Even with these two questions open it would be possible for me to build that particular aircraft as a model.

Now let's find all that information about the second P39 too.

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Hello Ueli


Maybe a little step forward... Archive of the operational activity of the GC II/9 for that period seems to be located in the box G7956 of the French SHD (Service Historique de la Défense).



I've not found your post on the Aeroforums. Do you remember on which topic you linked it ?


For the spinners colour. I am absolutely not a specialist of markings and colours. But, by comparison with the French roundel and the yellow circle surrounding it, I will also say red or at least reddish.


Best regards / Bis bald



J Schreiber

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

hello Jean
sounds very interesting - would you keep that search active please.
I have now expanded my search in the Swiss Federal Archive (Bundesarchiv) and have a few more dossiers already. More will arrive in a few days because they have to scan them first. I have noticed that often the two accidents (16. July 1945, 2 Airacobras, 12. March 1947, 1 Spitfire) are linked together are at least cross-referenced.
It would be interesting to open another thread about the dangerous Rhein knee that maybe led to this crashes (but that's another story).

Today I knew both serial numbers of the P-39Q:
44-3914, which is a P-39Q-21 (4 blade propeller), pilot François de Laurens, 1ère Escadrille GC II/9
44-3044, which is a P-39Q-20 (3 blade propeller), pilot Louis François Delvolvé, ???

If someone of the French members can search and provide more information about GC II/9 Auverne that would indeed bring me further. I am also not sure where these Airacobras were based (airfield); was it still la Vallon near Isteres or would GC II/9 have moved more to the north at that time.
As you can see on the photo of my previous post the photo belongs to a collection (collection J. Mutin) maybe someone know this collection and maybe there are more photos of the 1ère Escadrille of GC II/9 Auvergne around?

And as for the Aeroforum I have done a new thread there and asked for the already archived thread to be opened or copied over again. But since the forum seems to be moderated, I haven't heard or red anything since then.

So let's go on here in 12 o'clock high for now.
cheers
Ueli

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Is it possible a censor has deleted the number on the forward fuselage?
The poor photo quality also makes it difficult to tell if the rudder is just a paler shade of the camo colour or another colour entirely.
Similarly for the spinner - could be yellow and I certainly wouldn't discount it, maybe red ...... but if you look at the red in the tricolour on the rudder, it's quite dark - looks darker than the spinner.
The roundel on the fuselage also looks odd - maybe not finished and that's why there's no nose number??
Good luck
Peter

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

Thanks Ueli

Since I am mostly interested in aircraft, I was very pleased to see the second P-39Q s/n being located. Very well done!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

wow, it is now two years since I have started this tread and this year is the 75th anniversary of this deadly afternoon.
Last year I have been busy half a year and couldn't do a lot of modelling. I just finished the decals and let them print. Things were looking much better this year. My two Airacobras are now finished. I have one photo attached.
There are more pictures on my Flickr album (https://flic.kr/s/aHsmPqQwKY).
And there was also published a story about that anniversary in the Andelfinger Zeitung, a local newspaper.

Re: P-39Q French Airacobra crashed in Switzerland July 1945
 

nice job on the kits ! :thumbsup: