A-20 in distress
 

Can anyone identify this A-20 in obvious distress? From single star w/out bars I would say late 1942 early 1943

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Some limited aircraft speculation this photo on this site:

https://imgur.com/gallery/BcaoGax

"I wasn't able to dig up any context for this one and the fact that no tail markings are visible makes it even harder to identify the aircraft, however it is clearly a "solid" nosed model (as opposed to the earlier glazed nose model) of the factory manufactured variety, not a field modification where the glazed nose was painted over, making it an A-20G manufactured from February 1943. There also appears to be no power driven dorsal turret, making it one of the first 750 such aircraft manufactured, and since it is armed with .50 cal machine guns and not cannon, not one of the first 250 of the series

Also of note is the wing insignia that lacks the horizontal bars which became standard in June 1943, which gives us a fairly narrow time window for the image. The fact that the marking is only present on the left wing also dates the image to post February 1943."

Re: A-20 in distress
 

It's possibly from the 3rd BG in the SWPA or the 47th BG in Tunisia

Re: A-20 in distress
 

The land seen below the aircraft is farmland, and so I think we can exclude SWPA in 1943, and probably too Tunisia.

Another possibility is that the picture was taken over the US during a domestic flight.

Here are some possibilities:
430412 A-20G 42-53612 9 Ferry 6 Ferry AAB, Long Beach, CA BLEF 5 Perry, Tom USA UT Hill Field, UT
430501 A-20G 42-53700 21 Ferry Palm Springs, CA KCRF 5 Luchsinger, Andrew G USA CA San Bernardino AAF, CA
430602 A-20G 42-53911 9 Ferry 6 Ferry AAF, Long Beach, CA LACEF 5 Bell, Woodrow M USA UT Hill Field, Ogden, UT
430614 A-20G 42-53827 4 Ferry Memphis, TN KCRF 5 Hampson, Robert W USA OK 1 1/2 Mi NE Edmond, OK
430615 A-20G 42-53969 21 Ferry AAF, Palm Springs, CA KLACEF 5 Ullrich, Dellie O USA UT Delta, UT

Taken from: http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AFrptsMO.htm

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Don't think so Laurent. Port engine on fire and the top of the fuselage badly damaged, possibly by flak.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

I have to agree with Kutscha, this airplane has obvious flak damage and with the port engine on fire, this plane is going down.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Ok, to help identify this airplane, I looked at my copy of "American Combat Planes" by Ray Wagner, still the best compediun for information on US combat planes.
According to this, some of the A-20Bs working in Africa were modified with solid gun noses, which was chosen as the inspiration behind the A-20G. Enclosed is a picture from ACP which shows this solid nose A-20B.
Based on this information and the early US markings, I would submit this is one of the 47th BG A-20Bs with a solid gun nose. Notice the early USAAF markings.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

The picture appears in the 47th BGs collection of pictures here:

http://www.47thbombgroup.org/pictures/history/25.html

Enlarged Version:
http://www.47thbombgroup.org/picture...mages/249.html

It is the 249th picture in a collection of 300.

The label says "Out of the Picture, 41 down in flames". With the number of 41, it should have been in the 85th BS.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Thank you for that incisive find! I was guessing it was a 47th BG airplane but this firmly identifies it.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

One possibility A-20B, 85BS, 47 BG, April 16,1943. 1st/Lt. Edgar Hinshaw and two POW

Re: A-20 in distress
 

There were two enlisted men from the 47th BG captured on the same day as Edgar D Hinshaw. "If" the photo is of their ship, it is surprising the gunners survived.

S/Sgt ARCHER, GORDON M, 20645968 and
S/Sgt MESSEMER, JOHN E 12027198.

On the 47th BG website there is a MACR report of a "No. 41" loss here (one of the eyewitness statements (by Sgt Leblock) refers to the plane as No 41) :

http://www.47thbombgroup.org/macr/52.html

In reading through the MACR, there are some items of interest. The plane was hit by flak and the port (left side) engine was set on fire. The mission was to an airfield in Sicily and all the crew were killed as the plane was later attacked by fighters. The plane was an A-20B, 41-3252. The date was July 4, 1943 which is later than was originally estimated, based on the plane's markings. There is a map in the MACR and it "might" be possible to identify something in the photo to that location in Sicily, "if" this crash was the plane in the photo.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Unclear what bearing this has on this discussion, if any. The MACR which Rolland linked to for aircraft 41-3252 is also available on fold3.com for those with access:

https://www.fold3.com/image/29416338

The primary difference in this document and that linked to by Rolland is the first page. Normally in a MACR file this page would be blank except for the MACR number in the top left corner. This is not the case with this document where the first page is an image of a manila folder where on the identification tab is simply written -51-. The significance of which is unclear but may suggest 41-3252 was the 47th BG aircraft #51. Unclear why the web site refers to it as "41" in other instances.

Anyway, the crew remains of 41-3252 were recovered postwar and returned to the U.S. then interred in a common grave at the Zachary Taylor National Cemetery, Louisville, Kentucky:

2nd Lt Oriell “Dub” Mitcham; https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...oriell-mitcham

Sgt John F Kelly; https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...7/john-f-kelly

SGT Frank Mast Montgomery; https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...ast-montgomery

May they rest in peace together

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Thanks to all for their input.At least the Bomber Group and probably the squadron is identified.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Hi all,

in the mACR report there is a info about enemy fighter, which attack this machine. Is there any claim from luftwaffe or Italian side?

thanks

Faenor

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Joe Baugher has:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1941_1.html

A-20B DL, Havoc:
41-3252 (47th BG, 85th BS) shot down by Oblt. Heinz-Edgar Barres in Bf 109G-6 of JG 77/1. 1 mi NE of Sciacca, Sicily, Italy Jul 4, 1943. 3 KIA. MACR 52.


I am trying to contact the 47th BG website and see if we can learn more. I have a theory about the photo.

UPDATE: I received a reply from Mark O'Boyle (47th BG website owner/administrator). He says -- It is without question Mitcham, Kelly, and Montgomery / MACR 52.

Here again is the link to the photo as shown on the 47th BG website:

http://www.47thbombgroup.org/picture...mages/249.html


My theory is the photo is a cropped and enlarged Strike Attack Vertical photo, taken by one of the other planes during the attack. When I look closely at the photo, I think I can see bomb bursts on "bottom right" edge. The photo may in-fact be "rotated" with "East" more or less toward the bottom. That would point the plane along the flight path as is shown in the MACR. The "original" full sized SAV photo apparently no longer exists.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Wow, amazing work. Then, we can definitively identify this A/C as 41-3252. lost July 4,1943.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

Does anybody have a 47th BG mission list?
I'm especially interested in missions over Yugoslavia, Nov 43-Apr 44, and again Nov 44-Apr 45.

Re: A-20 in distress
 

By the way, what you feel is a flak hit could also have been caused by a collision, or not?

Danny