27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello

What were the losses of the JG2 and JG26 that day (around 20.00)

In the Caldwell book p.144.
Two Fw.190 8/JG26? shot down (pilots bailed out)
one Bf.109 11 staffel shot down,JG2 or JG26?

Nothing in the table casualties p.146.

What are the allied claims-exception of Clostermann-
Michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello,
I have the following crashes:
Fw. Elflein,German 2./JG 2 KIA Ypreville (F)
Lt. Godt,Wilhelm 10./JG 2 KIA Gravenchov / Le Havre (F)
Uffz. Krieg,Heinrich 5./JG 26 KIA merville (F)
Frans A

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Here is what Tony Wood had on this day in a file he built years ago for RAF activity in 1943:


Ramrod S.6 (Zero 08.00) This Ramrod was in fived Parts. Part I: 36 B-26 Marauder to attack POIX airfield. Results target bombed at 08.26, dropping 349 x 300-lb. IB on North-East & South-East dispersals. Part II: 21 B-26 Maraders to attack Power-Station at Grand-Quévilly. Rendezvous Hastings, 08.00 hrs., with 21 B-26 dispatched. One B-26 lost, reason unknown. Close-Escort: 124 Airfield (Spitfires LF.Vb) of 132 & 602 Squadrons. West Malling (Spitfires LF.Vb) of 130 & 234 Squadrons. Escort-Cover: Redhill (Spitfires LF.Vc) of 131 & 504 Squadrons. High-Cover: Hornchurch (Spitfires IX) of 129 & 222 Squadrons. Target-Cover: North Weald (Spitfires IX) of 331 & 332 Squadrons. Close-Escort & Escort-Cover engaged 17-plus FW 190s of the Seine Estuary, 3 Spitfires & pilots missing. Part III: 18 Mitchells II of No.2 Group, to attack Bernay/St. Martin airfield, to rendezvous Hastings 08.40 hrs. Ramrod abandoned due to weather. Part IV: 2 Bostons III of No.2 Group, to attack Beaumont-le-Roger airfield, to rendezvous Beachy Head 08.45 hrs. Ramrod abandoned due to weather. Part V: 8 Typhoons Ib Fighter-Bombers (Bomphoon) of No.83 Group, to attack POIX airfield, to rendezvous Hastings 08.40 hrs. Ramrod abandoned due to weather.

Escort: West Malling
RAF 11 Gp. 130 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vb 07.40-09.30 Ramrod S.6 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty M-BS: Grand Quevilly

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 130 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 08.30 ca: Norville

Escort-Cover: Redhill
RAF 11 Gp. 131 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vc 07.35-09.35 Ramrod S.6 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109G 2 Cat.Em Me 109s M-BS: Grand Quevilly

Cat.Em 27.08.43 P/O F.W. Bateman: kia 11 Group 131 Sqn. Spitfire Vc: EE768 Me 109s W. Quevilly
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/Sgt. G.F. Andrews: p/w 11 Group 131 Sqn. Spitfire Vc: EP547 Me 109s W. Quevilly

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 131 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109G 08.50 ca: W. Grand Quevilly

RAF 11 Gp. 504 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vb 07.35-09.35 Ramrod S.6 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 1 Cat.Em Me 109s M-BS: Grand Quevilly

Cat.Em 27.08.43 Sgt. C.H. Jacotine: kia 11 Group 504 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: BM302 Me 109s W. Quevilly

Ramrod S.7 (Zero 17.00) Low-level by 7 Bostons III of 107 Squadron, No.2 Group, to attack Power-station near Gosnay. Two attacked, while a third was hit by light-Flak and collided with another, both crashing. A third Boston was lost when FW 190s attacked the remaining force of the route out-bound.

Light-Bomber:
RAF 2 Gp. 107 Sqn. 6 Boston III 18.20-19.59 Ramrod S.7 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 3 Cat.Em Lost Tasked: Gosnay

Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Allison: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Fairfax: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Rankin: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/Sgt. Parsons: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay

Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Locke: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Pattinson: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/Sgt. Mc Leod: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Kelly: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay

Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/Sgt. Jones: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 W/O Anderson: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O Wilkinson: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay
Cat.Em 27.08.43 Sgt. Edwards: mia 2 Group 107 Sqn. Boston III: OM- Lost on mission to Gosnay

Ramrod S.8 (Zero 18.00) Ramrod was attack on St. Omer rail-yards (subterfuge for the first attack on what was to be a Crossbow-Target: the Todt Org. construction-site at Watten, near St. Omer: Ed.) U.S. VIII Bomber Command to dispatch four CBWs (each with 60 B-17s) in four waves. Results: 185 attacked releasing 368.0-tons of bombs, 4 lost, 7-0-6 claimed by gunner-crews. Fighter-Cover for 1st Wave: Biggin Hill (Spitfires IX: 66) of 341 & 485 Squadrons. North Weald (Spitfires IX) of 331 & 332 Squadrons. Top-Cover: one Fighter-Group of P-47s of U.S. VIII Fighter Command. Narrative: Biggin Hill Wing continously engaged from St. Omer to Mardyck on return, claimed 2-1-2 FW 190s for loss of two pilots. One P-47 missing.
Fighter-Cover for 2nd Wave: Redhill (Spitfires LF.Vb) of 131 & 504 Squadrons. 127 Airfield (Spitfires IX) of 403 & 421 Squadrons. Northolt (Spitfires IX) of 303 & 316 Squadrons. Horhchurch (Spitfires IX) of 64 & 313 Squadrons. Top-Cover: two Fighter-Groups of P-47s of U.S. VIII Fighter Command. Narrative: Twelve E/A seen, engagements in which 313 claimed 1-0-0 FW 190. Fighter-Cover for 3rd Wave: Tangmere Wing (Spitfires XII) of 41 & 91 Squadrons. Fairlop Wing (Spitfires LF.V) of 302 & 317 Squadrons. Hornchurch Wing (Spitfires IX) of 129 & 222 Squadrons. Narrative: 18 FW 190s were seen by Tangmere Wing in the distance, Fairlop Wing sighted 6 Me 109s. Hornchurch Wing engaged 9 FW 190s and claimed 3-0-1 for no loss. Fighter-Cover 4th Wave: Kenley Wing (Spitfires LF.V) of 66 & 165 Squadrons. Narrative: Wing engaged 10 FW 190s in the St. Omer area, claiming 1-0-0 for no loss. Summary for Ramrod S.7 & S.8: Claims 8-1-3 FW 190s. Losses: 4 Spitfires, 4 B-17s, 3 Bostons & 1 P-47 Thunderbolt.

1st Fighter-Cover Biggin Hill:
RAF 11 Gp. 341 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF IX 18.04-20.26 Ramrod S.8 2 - 1 - 2 FW 190 2 Cat.Em FW 190s H-BS: Watten

Cat.Em 27.08.43 Cmdt. R.G. Mouchotte dfc: kia 11 Group 341 Sqn. Spitfire F.IX (66): MH417 FW 190s St. Pol
Cat.Em 27.08.43 Sgt. P. Magrot: kia 11 Group 341 Sqn. Spitfire F.IX (66): NL- FW 190s St. Pol

Claim 27.08.43 Capt. M. Boudier 11 Group 341 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol
Claim 27.08.43 Sgt. P.H. Closterman 11 Group 341 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol
Claim 27.08.43 S/Lt. M. Laurent 11 Group 341 Sqn. 0 - 1 - 0 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol
Claim 27.08.43 S/Lt. M. Laurent 11 Group 341 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol
Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 341 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol

RAF 11 Gp. 485 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF IX 18.04-20.20 Ramrod S.8 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty H-BS: Watten

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 485 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.20 ca: St. Pol

2nd Fighter-Cover Hornchurch:
RAF 11 Gp. 313 Sqn. 13 Spitfire LF.Vb 18.30-19.25 Ramrod S.8 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty H-BS: Watten

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 313 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.00 ca: S.E. Calais

3rd Fighter-Cover Composite:
RAF 11 Gp. 222 Sqn. 12 Spitfire F.IX 18.33-20.17 Ramrod S.8 3 - 0 - 1 FW 190 No casualty H-BS: Watten

Claim 27.08.43 F/Lt. H.P. Lardner-Burke 11 Group 222 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.30 ca: St. Omer
Claim 27.08.43 F/O O. Smik 11 Group 222 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.30 ca: St. Omer
Claim 27.08.43 F/O R.B. Hesselyn 11 Group 222 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.30 ca: St. Omer
Claim 27.08.43 F/Lt. H.P. Lardner-Burke 11 Group 222 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 FW 190 19.30 ca: St. Omer

RAF 11 Gp. 41 Sqn. 12 Spitfire XII 18.35-20.05 Ramrod S.8 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 2 Cat.Em Fighter H-BS: Watten

Cat.Em 27.08.43 F/O D. Haywood: p/w 11 Group 41 Sqn. Spitfire XII: EN611 FW 190s St. Omer
Cat.Em 27.08.43 P/O L. A. Prickett: p/w 11 Group 41 Sqn. Spitfire XII: EN236 FW 190s St. Omer

4th Fighter-Cover Kenley:
RAF 11 Gp. 66 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vb 18.43-20.40 Ramrod S.8 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty H-BS: Watten

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 11 Group 66 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 19.40 ca: St. Omer


U.S. VIII Fighter Command dispatched 173 P-47s of 4th, 56th, 78th & 353rd FGs on Bomber-Support to Watten military-installations. One Flight of 56th Group was bounced by Spitfires resulting in damage to a P-47. Combat claims amounted to 8-1-2 for loss of one P-47 and pilot of 353rd Group. Note: no mention of U.S. VIII Fighter Command's operations of this day is listed in R.A.F. Fighter Command's list of Combats and Casualties, Air 16/888-890. The above data is from "Diary of Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman ff. 100. On examination of VIII Fighter Command Narrative for 27th August, 1943, held in PRO File Air 40/436, no combat claims or losses were sustained by the four Groups operation on Field Order # 116. Editor: Tuesday, 18 July 2000.

Defensive Operations:
RAF 13 Gp. 312 Sqn. 2 Spitfire Vb 17.47-19.13 Interception 1 - 0 - 0 Ju 88 No casualty 35 sm. E Peterhead

Claim 27.08.43 Pilot 13 Group 312 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Ju 88 18.35 ca: 35 sm. E. Peterhead

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Thanks to you two,but I deduce what? that the losses given by Caldwell are false?

Amazing,it's not his kind
Well.

Best Regards
Michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

I think you have not checked well, because the death of Uffz. Krieg of 5./JG 26 is described both in the narrative page 144 and the loss list page 146.

For the three other losses of JG 26 (two of 8./JG 26 and one of 11./JG 26) the pilot was unhurt and in this kind of case Caldwell does not list the losses in his tables in the book, except in the rare case when the pilot is known. Caldwell does not list ground losses either.

Here is what the Luftwaffe losses summary database has for this day and JG 2 and JG 26:
Stab/J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
I./J.G.2: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 01/09/1943)
II./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
II./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 31/08/1943)
10./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
10./J.G.2: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 01/09/1943)

I./J.G.26: 2 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 31/08/1943)
I./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 11/09/1943)
II./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 30/08/1943)
II./J.G.26: 1 destroyed without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)

That is 5 total losses for JG 26, against 4 in Caldwell's narrative. 8./JG 26 and 11./JG 26 were then flying with the "Geschwader Stab Gruppe" and their losses might be the ones reported as I./JG 26 above. Krieg was a member of II./JG 26, so we are missing one loss with enemy action for II./JG 26.

I don't have Prien JFV book for 1943 West front, but can someone provide the losses for JG 2 and JG 26 that day ?

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

By the way, Godt crashplace is probably Gravenchon, now in Le Havre suburbs. One of my friends live here. Gravenchov does not sound very French.

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hi Laurent

I read p.146 and I excluded Uffz.Krieg,but I did not express myself correctly!

Actually,your precisions change a lot of things:at the beginning,we seemed to have a big overclaiming allied but that does not seem to be the case anymore.
(9 allied claims for 6 german losses)

I too,it interest me to have the version of Prien's book for 1943

michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Laurant,
That is correct. Was a typing error. Sorry!
Frans A

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello ,

Fw. German Elflein was shot down by return fire from 322nd BG Marauders after an aborted mission on Rouen . In 2013 we have found remains of his Fw190 A-6 # 550175 at Froberville near Fecamp .

Lt Wilhelm Godt was shot down by the Spitfire escort at Notre Dame de Gravenchon .

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hi

Following my research on this day:
According to Caldwell:
Hptm Ebersberger 8/JG26 one spit Arras,but in T.Wood(microfilms),4/JG26 one spit St.Pol.....different place!different staffel!

What is the right version?

Hptm.Hohagen Stab/I/JG2,one B-17 (19.50) Reims.....Reims??:is not there an error? according T.Wood.

michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello Michel,

in JFV Vol. 10/IV the following confirmed victories are listed:

Page 444
27.08.43 Stab I./JG 2 Hptm Erich Hohagen B-17 (39.) 19.50 Pleunier, 5.500 m.

Page 578
27.08.43 Hptm Kurt Ebersberger 8./JG 26 Spitfire (30.) 19.50 5 km nordwestlich Dünkirchen, 6.000 m.

Following the Germann fighter losses on 27 August 1943 according to JFV Vol. 10/IV:

Stab JG 2
N.N. Hindernisberührung, Landung, Poix, 10% Fw 190 A-6 530392

I./JG 2
2./JG 2 Fw German Elflein † Luftkampf, Absturz Ypreville Raum Duclair, 100% Fw 190 A-6 530175 (diverging Gen.Qu. loss report from 1 Sep 1943 and addition from 24 Sep 1943: WNr. 550175, name Hermann Elflein)

II./JG 2
N.N. Motorschaden, Bauchlandung, Cambrai, 30% Bf 109 G-6 15916
NN. Spritmangel, Notlandung, Merville, 35% Bf 109 G-6 18823

III./JG 2
10./JG 2 Lt Wilhelm Godt † Luftkampf 4-mot., Absturz Gravenchon zwischen 09.20 und 09.30 Uhr, 100%
Fw 190 A-6 530137
10./JG 2 N.N. Landeunfall Montdidier, 25% Fw 190 A-6 550435

II./JG 26
5./JG 26 Uffz Heinrich Krieg † Luftkampf Bomber und Jäger, Absturz 1,5 -2 km südwestlich St. Venant, 100% Fw 190 A-4 2379 schwarze 5

11./JG 26
N.N. Motorstörung, Notlandung Lens, 70% Bf 109 G-3 16263 rote 9.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Very odd that both Caldwell and Prien vs Luftwaffe losses summary database differs to such a degree. Since I don't have access to the latter (not even sure what it is :o) ) I think this needs an explanation.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello Stig,

here is a supplement: on 23 June 1943 the I./JG 26 moved from Poix to Rheine to strengthen the airspace in the Reich (JFV Vol. 10/III).
On 27 August 1943 are listed two losses:
3./JG 26 N.N. Luftkampf, St. Nicolas, 100% Fw 190 A-5 2542
I./JG 26 N.N. Luftkampf, Nieuwepoort, 100% Fw 190 A-5 410250.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

OK Leo

I don't have access to my JFV volumes where I am right now, hence my question.

So we still have one aircraft difference between the two sources.

Laurent
Care to state which one is left out?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello,

The Luftwaffe summary aircraft losses is a Luftwaffe document that has been put online by Andreas Brekken and co (thanks to you).

URL is http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_summ_los...iew.asp?PAGE=1

This is the public access giving access to the summary of losses. All JG units are covered and some extra units, but most KG and TG units have not been entered in the database. The source covers 1944 and is especially useful for this year.

As for 27 August 1943, I would say we are missing a I./JG 26 loss:
I./J.G.26: 2 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 31/08/1943)
I./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 11/09/1943)

Next step would be to check GQM loss lists for 31 August and 11 September 1943. Either the above is true and a third loss was added on 11 September, or it is a typo, or a correction that has been wrongly entered as an addition.

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Thanks Laurent

I have Andreas home page registered, but I cannot see how one can get from there to these lists. Anyway I have now added them separately so I can locate these pages again.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hello Stig and Laurent,

in the Gen.Qu. loss reports are listed:

Report from 31 August 1943 no. 19
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: St. Nicola, Ursache: Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß, Aufschlagbrand (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 2532 100%

Report from 31 August 1943 no. 18
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: bei Nieuport, Ursache: Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß, Aufschlagbrand (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 250 100%

Report from 11 September 1943 no. 24
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: bei Ostende, Ursache: Absturz nach Luftkampf (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 410250 100%

The entries of the 250 and 410250 obviously cover the same aircraft, so on 27 August 1943 the I./JG 26 has lost two Fw 190 A-5. The entry in JFV Vol. 10/III is correct.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Thanks Leo

Seems quite likely indeed

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Great Leo informations ,Thanks (and the others!)

So I resume:5 losses by gunfire from enemy aircraft

Just a question:the Fw.190 (2542) 3/JG26 lost St Nicolas;is it st Nicolas near Dunkerque or St Nicolas near Lens?
An idea?

Best Regards
Michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims
 

Hi Michel,

St. Nicolas near Dunkerque. The I./JG 26 was ordered to the area Dunkerque encountering escort fighters of a B-17 formation.
The Werknummer of the Fw 190 A-5 was either 2532 (Gen.Qu. loss report from 31 Aug 1943) or 2542 (JFV Vol. 10/III page 97).

Regards
Leo