Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello

Trying to figure out which Ju88C-6's were with the Luftbeobachterstaffel 3 at Venlo, I came across an old thread about the alleged Ju88 crash near Nederweert (NL) which actually must have been downed near Niederwerth (Germany).

This particular Ju88 C-6 had Werkenummer 750461 but I can't check whether this is a genuine serial for this type nor its Stammkennzeichen… (where is that reference work ? :D)

Perhaps someone has the answer(s) ? Most appreciated !

Warm greetings from Venlo, the Netherlands, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

On 1 Dec 43, 2./ZG 1 lost a C-6 750418 on such a mission, crashing near Pesch

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello Chris,

Many thanks for your informative answer, the chance that 750461 was a genuine Werkenummer for a Ju88C-6 has increased significantly. The general picture about these interesting units becomes gradually better and better.

Best regards and again thank you ! Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

There are loads of Wnr in that 750xxx range that are ALL C-6's.....so no doubt that Werknummer is valid and correct and that this is a Ju 88C-6. To the crash location......well.....we have no explanation for the Niederwerth/Holl. on the VLM....

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello Marcel,

here are some examples of Ju 88 C-6 losses and damages listed in the Gen.Qu. loss returns :

750345 5./NJG 3 13.12.43 100%
750371 4./NJG 3 13.12.43 30%
750377 I./ZG 1 1.12.43 100%
750379 II./NJG 2 10.12.43 40%
750400 II./NJG 2 26.11.43 20%
750401 6./NJG 2 16.12.43 100%
750413 I./ZG 1 1.12.43 100%
750435 4./NJG 3 13.12.43 100%
750437 I./ZG 1 12.12.43 100%
750455 I./NJG 2 26.11.43 100%
750460 5./NJG 2 20.12.43 100%
750462 II./NJG 2 3.12.43 100%
750471 I./NJG 3 16.12.43 50%
750591 7./ZG 1 21.12.43 35%
750592 I./ZG 1 1.12.43 100%
750630 I./ZG 1 12.12.43 100%
750701 I./NJG 2 16.12.43 100%
750820 I./ZG 1 12.12.43 100%
750906 I./NJG 3 2.12.43 30%
750928 I./NJG 2 4.12.43 100%
750929 I./NJG 2 13.12.43 100%
750932 I./NJG 2 16.12.43 45%
750957 I./ZG 1 1.12.43 100%

Regards
Leo

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Dear John, dear Leo,

Thank you both for the affirmative information about this Ju88 (Wnr.750461).
I have made databases with Werkenummer from Bf110, Do215, Me163, He219 and some other types but not the Ju88 so far, so I am quite a novice.

Leo's list shows another interesting detail: that 750460 and 750462 were on the inventory of the II./NJG 2, a unit of which is known to have delivered other aircraft to Luftbeobachterstaffel 3 too. There might have been a link as well between 750461 and II./NJG 2 as well.

Again many thanks for your valuable additions! Have a good weekend,

Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Yes, Ju 88 C-6 750461 is in genuine W.Nr. range, and apprently did survive this forced landing, later going to I/NJG 1 (or IV possibly)

Note, add space between Ju and 88 and C-6, per "RLM standard".
https://wikivisually.com/wiki/RLM_ai...gnation_system

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Marcel,

Still am interested why you believe this a/c did not crash near Nederweert. The indication on the VLM is clear with Holl. and if this a/c made a bellylanding near Niederwerth in Germany this wouold have been clearly explained on the VLM i.m.h.o. Furthermore, Luft.Beob.St 3 was stationed at Venlo which makes Nederweert more logical.....

J.

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Well, many in 750xxx and 751xxx were Ju 88 R-2 but I guess thats just for us others to know.

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello John,

I can assure you that I haven't made my mind up yet about the correct crash location of Niemann's Ju88:
1. I fully agree that the NVM info is a strong (and likely conclusive) source: 'Niederwerth' in combination with '/Holl.' is phonetically pointing to Nederweert/Holland.
2. Niemann's date/place of death is given as 1th March 1943 at Dormagen near Cologne, several days after his crash. Niemann could have been moved to a Luftwaffe hospital at Dormagen (there was actually a Reserve Luftwaffe Lazarett there), but when he was so badly wounded, then it would have been easier/faster to bring him to 'nearby' dutch hospitals.


I highly respect your expertise on Luftwaffe losses but I hope that you agree that the statement that a loss of a Venlo based unit is likely to be in the wider region around Venlo is not a convincing argument (:-). The Luftbeobachterstaffeln had to 'shadow' British and American bombers wherever they went, so a loss could occur far from the main operating airfield of a Luftbeob.Staffel. Even the I./NJG 1 lost nightfighters as far as Celle (H.D.Frank), Magdeburg (M.Meurer), Mulbjerg/Denmark (Guth) etc.

Do we have Dutch SGLO members in the area of Nederweert we could ask for help?

Warm greetings from Venlo, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello Ed,

Your remark about Ju 88 G-6 (750461) being with the I./NJG 1 in the summer of 1944 interests me because the I./NJG 1 completely converted to the Heinkel He 219 after February 1944. According to the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, the I./NJG 1 had 1 Ju 88 on their inventory up to June 1944 but this was a Ju 88 R-2, not a C-6 (or was 750461 modernized to a R-2 ?).

Can you say something about your source? Best regards, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Source for C-6 750461 being with I./NJG 1 is not a secondary one.
Information comes from NASM Reel 2047-2.
Aircraft was in July 1944 in Werneuchen for fitting with Naxos Z.
As there were totally more than 200 aircraft listed in the report, there is still a change for a typo or more in the listing.


Regards


Dirk

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

From document Übernahme der Verteilung Naxos August 1944 aircraft mentioned with I/NJG 1. Ju 88 C-6 Wnr 750461.
Lubesta 3 Ju 88 R-2 Wnr 720090.

Junker

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello Dirk, hello Jörn,

Thanks for your interesting input and if I remember it correctly Jörn, you have provided me some (or all) He219 identities with Naxos from the same source wasn't it?

Now an interesting developement emerges: it is known that most Luftbeobachter Staffeln were dissolved end July 1944, whereas each nightfighter Gruppe had some aircraft with Naxos to act as leading aircraft and/or reconnaissance aircraft to pick up H2S radar emissions in time, more or less replacing the former Luftbeobachter-task.

As from July 1944 the I./NJG 1 seems no longer have had a Ju 88, it might be logical to assume that its Ju 88 was sent away to get Naxos, but never returned to this unit. I cannot explain the absence of any Ju 88's with the I./NJG 1 from July 1944 until the end of WW-2.

If it is not too much to ask, a copy of this list with Naxos equipped nightfighters might perhaps be useful to identify the Führungs-aircraft at other Nachtjagdgruppen.

Best regards and again thank you for the enlighting information, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hi Marcel.

I will send you the document.

Jörn

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello Jörn,

THANKS ! Very appreciated !

Warm greetings from Venlo, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Marcel,

I did not have Niemann as part of this crew......I only have the NVM listing Wolf and Bokel. Is Niemann reported as a loss on a different NVM?

Regards,

John

Ps. I just got back from a short holiday....

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Hello John,

Thanks for your response, I hope that you had a pleasant holiday! The info came originally from Matti Salonen in a thread long time ago:

1944-02-25, 3. Luftbeobachterstaffel, Ju 88C-6, 750461, Niederwerth, Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch ? %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Niemann, Richard, verletzt (am 1944-03-01 seinen Verletzungen erlegen)
Beobachter Uffz Bokel, Wolfgang, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Wolf, Xaver, verletzt

I never saw the NVM myself, but I could ask Matti where he found Niemann.

Warm greetings, Marcel

Re: Luftbeobachterstaffel 3, Ju88 expert sought
 

Ok, I will check also to see what I can find. Must have been reported on a seperate NVM. Strange that he died in Dormagen according to VDK database. That is also quite some distance away from the german Niederwerth.

This needs more checking....:-)...

John