Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Currently I work on a scenario simluating the atack of the VVS on germans AF's on 5th of July 1943.

My question goes like this:

Did the Bf's of JG52 and JG3 use gunpods in that stage?

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

During this period both geschwader had a mix of G-4s and G-6s (and some G-2s) and I recall seeing several images of G-4s belonging to JG52 (Hartmann) captioned as G-4/R6s (w/ gondolas) but I am unsure of the date[s]...

EDIT:

Over at Falcon's 109 site there are several images of G-4/R-6s. This may not help you with an actual percentage or total number of gondola equipped 109s for 5 July '43 but it shows some JG 52 G-4s were such equipped leading up to that date.

Most Orbats I have seen for the LW at Kursk don't specify sub-type (just G-4, G-6 etc...)

I am sure you have seen Pavel's Air Battle over Kursk 1943 site. In the lost list for JG 3 and JG 52 there are werk-numbers listed so you may be able to track down how many of those lost were equipped with gondolas.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Yes, and the Hungarian fighters used /R-6 variants in July as well (in the same area).

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Yes, pictures are there, right. Thanks!

Werknummern wouldn't help because the pods were removable.

Csaba, the Hungarians flew a mix of F-4 and G-2, right?

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Khazanov/Gorbatsch book on air battle during Zitadelle contains nice and quite detailed description of the attack against the airfields from Russian side.
As for the Bf 109 gunpods I do not know definite answer.

kind regards,
Pawel

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

The Hungarians had some mules as well (F-4 fuselage with the G-2's DB 605 engine)

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

The comment about "mules" is interesting, as that is what is seen on the early Mistels. Presumably not the same individual aircraft as in Hungary. Does this imply a significant programme of re-engining, perhaps primarily for use in training units?

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Nope. These mules were born, because the Nazis sold many times just the crap planes to Hungary (worn out F-4's, for example, when their units used G-6's in the same time and area...). There were no available new DB 601 engines, that's why the knocked out old DB 601's were changed to DB 605's sometimes. In my Hungarian aces book, you'll see a nice example of this plane in a very good quality photo.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

It's correct. 'G-4/R-6' is an incorrect designation,the gunpods kit, Rustsatz VI did not show up in the aircraft designation. A G-4 with or without gondolas, bombs, or draptank is the same, a G-4.

The /R-something designations are only for factory converted planes, ie. long range recces with two droptanks, tactical recces etc.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

BTW also Woroshejkin identified R6 at Kursk, he mentioned as new G6.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Concerning the hungerian mules, how much aircrafts are concerned by ??

I don't find any ref. of F-4 on the docs..

Remi

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Sidenotes:
1) Similar stories happened between GB/USA and USSR:
RAF flew SpitIX, USAAF flew P-51 while VVS was supplied with Hurricane, P-39 and P-40... it is normal imho to first supply yourself and then your Allies.

2) Don't forget that there were hungarian Nazis also. I really don't like the statements which implement positions like "bad bad germans were Nazis and all others incl. rest of Axis were their victims". IMHO, Hungary and Romania could have resisted like the western countries also. But they prefered to collaborate and try to take advantage above opposing Germany. Romania was lucky to be able to change sides, Hungary wasn't. But that all has reasons also inside each country.

Sure, Germany has the biggest responsibility of all countries. Nevertheless, every country incl. Allies, should critically check & analyse its position during that horrible era, not only we Germans. I don't want to whine, it's just my opinion.

So, now let's see what kind of discussion this post will kick off ;) .

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

I wrote a long answer, but it went to the air, because I was login too long. So, shortly.

Your similar stories are wrong. You should compare the Hungarians to the Croats, Slovaks and Romanians, who all flew with G's in first half of 1943, when the Hungarians got still old, crap F-4's. BTW Hungary was not a military ally of Germany in WW II (they were just brother-in arms, I guess, it is the best English expression for that).

In Hungary, there was an Arrow Cross movement, which was wery different from the Nazism (it not means, that it was better in any way). There were many German sympathizers as well, but not in the political way. If you don't know the Hungarian history, it is not a problem, but do not explain, what happened here without enough knowledge.

I have never written similar things, like this:"bad bad germans were Nazis and all others incl. rest of Axis were their victims"

BTW I am half Hungarian and half German, so I guess, I can criticize both nations, because I know both of them quite well (not just from the history).

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Csaba, thanks for your answer. Maybe I was a bit too sensitive.

My problem is mainly the word "Nazis" as name for Germany. It oversimplifies matters in several ways:
a) for Non-Germans, it is (imho) often interpreted in a way that "all Germans were (and still are) Facist, Militarists and Anti-Semits"
b) for Germans, it makes everything easy: One can hide behind the Nazis, and say "We Germans didn't want that, everything was done by a minority inside Germany, the evil evil Nazis".

Sure my knowledge about hungarian history has big lacks. I know a bit about hungarian "imperialism" towards Slovakia & Romania, I read a socialist book in german language called "Death of an Army" about the loss of a whole army in the aftermath of Stalingrad, and this book gives a (certainly not purely objective) view on some some things in that era. I'd love to read Tobaks book, but it exists in hungarian and french only afaik.

Do you have a good link about hungarian history in the 30ies& 40ies era?

To come back to german deliveries to its allies:
Slovakia got 109G-6 in 1944 only
Romania: bought 109E in 41, got 109G, HS129, Ju87D, Ju88 in 43/44 similar to Hungary
Bulgaria: 109G in 1944 only also
Even the Fins, who were always highly praised by the Germans, only got 109's & Ju88 pretty late.
So, this is pretty balanced I think.

See you soon!

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

I never stated, that anyone got G-6's earlier. I wrote:"These mules were born, because the Nazis sold many times just the crap planes to Hungary (worn out F-4's, for example, when their units used G-6's in the same time and area...)" It happened exactly on July, 1943 in Kursk sector (the Germans flew G-6's there)

I wrote: early G models to the other Axis countries. The Slovaks, Romanians and Finns all flew G's in spring, 1943, only the Hungarians got F-4's (I did not mention the Bulgarians, who never fight against the Sovietunion)

So, it is not balanced at all (espacially not, if you know, that in Hungary, there was a significant Bf 109 production)

The Hungarians got the G-6 just in January, 1944.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

If Hungary was not an ally, it was so just a " customer", so they hv to buy what is available;
Concerning the BF109F, they are asked for "ausbildungs" models as stated on discussion in may 43,

Concerning the "nazi" nd other gracious terms, as the History hs been written for the last 60 years by Marxist's author, it's not necessary to speak about that, just rethoric, to hide 70 years of continuous murdering.

remi

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

...

Thanks to enlighten me regarding Hungary's position and role in WW II.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

AFAIK, the Hungarians received the first used F-4Bs in December 1942, at the time when the Rumanians - the only other small Axis power heavily involved in combat on the Eastern Front - were still flying 'Emils' nearby Stalingrad.

As for the word 'Nazis', it refers to members of the National-Socialist ('Nazi') Party. Therefore, the usage of this overused adjective should be avoided by any serious historian in a military history context. The same is valid for the usage of the word 'Communist', too.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Were the 109Gs in early 1943 actually better than the 109F-4s? As I recall, the DB 605As were, relatively speaking, garbage, at this time; and the pilots probably had a better chance of surviving with the DB 601E than with the DB 605A.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Dénes,

The Hungarians received their first F-4's not in December, 1942. I mentioned 1943, when the Romanian flew with G-2's, when the Hungarian used still F-4's. And the Romanians flew with Emils in 1941 too, when the Hungarians used CR 42's in Ukraine.

I know very well, who were the Nazis. BTW I have many unpublished documents regarding the Hungarian-German military and economical relationship (regarding the aircraft businesses as well - significant number of the German functionaries, who worked in this line, were members of the NSDAP)

George,

IMHO between the F-4 and G-2, there was only a small difference, but these used F-4's had generally very old engines, with a lot of mechanical problems. I have many details about crashes, crash landings because engine troubles from this period (and the old pilots mentioned me additional ones, which not remained in the documents).

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

Friendly advice before we have to end an interesting discussion: lets drop the political side issue before it gets out of hand.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

One reason for supplying Romania with better A/C then Hungary might have been that Romania was more important, and if only because of the petrochemical industry.

Concerning "Nazi": I don't want to overstress the topic, but the word is oversimplifying in this context. You wouldn't call George Bush a Democrat or Mr. Blair a Laborist, when talking about Iraq War, would you?

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

I think that you will find the DB 605 unrivalled in its murder of German pilots, starting with the ace Marseille, and continuing well on into 1943. And, in addition, to catching fire, it could only be run at a maximum of 1.3ata rather than its maximum rated of 1.42ata. And so, these engines were in really, pieces of clapped out junk before they were even installed. DB engines tended to be over-sold and under-developed, and the users paid with their deaths for injuries for this.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

George,

I have many Hungarian G accidents as well, because engine trouble (but the Luftwaffe collected much more sad experiences in this way, of course) But the reliability of these engines is relative. For example the DB 605 and the 601 as well was much more reliable, than the Re 2000's Piaggio radial engine (which type was the standard type of the Hungarian fighters, before the Messers arrived). And the Re 2000 suffered many structural failures as well, which caused a significant number of deadly accidents (like at the Bf 109F-2)

But we are quite far from the genuine question now. BTW among the mules, there were no cannon boats.

Re: Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?
 

I double checked the German documents I have related to aircraft handovers to the Hungarian air force.

The first concrete mention of '109F-4s being handed over to the Hungarians is December 1942. However, there is a note about five '109s (no sub-type being given) transferred the previous month. We can safely assume that those were also F-4s.

Therefore, the earliest date of Bf 109F-4 transfers I could find proof of is November 1942. Sadly, there are no details given if any of these were fitted with the underwing gun pod or not.