Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

In 1937 production of the Ju 52 switched from Junkers Dessau to newly-developed Bernburg production site. Do we know the exact date respectively the WNr block when this took place?Thanks for any hints.

RolandF

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

The first confirmed Bernburg-built Ju 52 is WNr 5912.

There may have been a few earlier examples built at Bernburg, and, for some time, the lines at Dessau and Bernburg seem to have been run in parallel.

Gerhard

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

No, no. No there was no Bernburg "production" per se.
Just assembly - wings, engines, undercarriages and tails mated to fuselage, test and delivery. Period.

Bernburg/Strenzfeld was only assembly location, fuselages were from Junkers Zweigwerk-Aschersleben, like Ju 87 and Ju 88.
Wings come from elsewhere etc. I find this strange still these errors abound. This has been stated many time, is marked on every dataplate
(one just has to know how to look)and I have this also verified from Junkers Aschersleben records in Bundesarchiv.
Ju 52/3m fuselage (parts) also come from Leipzig, and ABC program had more variation on production.

Image upload tonight at tinypic seems broken. Have some pages here of Ju 52/3m fuselages "taktstrasse" at Aschersleben,
both old line and newer. Whilst figuring out upload possiblilities, I also remember having actual Ju 52 fuselage production chart from FZA (Aschersleben)
and Serie chart for 1941-1942. But this is far more complex than practical to do here.

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

One page here.

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

FZA Serie program. Excuse smallness of image, for TOCH reasons, also quality is not good, as pic of Microfilm Roll reader screen, NARA / Washington.

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

@edNorth:

I didn't speak about "production", but wrote "Bernburg-built".

For me, an aircraft is built (or you may say produced, assembled, or whatever) where it is finally completed and (usually) makes its first flight. Period, too.

And, I think, RolandF wants to know which aircraft (WNr) came out of the Bernburg production/assembly/whatever line.

Gerhard

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Mr. Gerhard, excuse. This is not personal. For your infomation, both your writing and "explantion" is incorrect. But Rolands question is also incorrect, because JFM production was complex. And built and/or production mean same thing.
Bernburg deliveres begin between 5901 and 5912. Exact who was first I do not have here. I may have it in other files but as you are so offended I will not bother.

Do you entierly dismiss I provided samples or ORIGINAL docs as evidence on this?
You should seriously reconsider your attitude. I have nothing further to do here.

Ed

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Sorry Ed

You usually have many good points but in this case I completely agree with Gerhard.

Factories doing sub-assemblies or manufacturing parts etc cannot be considered to be the place where the aircraft is being built. Surely you cannot consider these Ju 52s to have been built at Aschersleben?

Since every industry both then and today are/were extremely dependent on sub-suppliers these parts just had to get together somewhere and in my book (and probably most people) that is where the aircraft itself is built.

Otherwise you will end up with the statement that no aircraft, cars, ships etc are never built at all, they just come together. I don't believe there is single industry neither then nor now, manufacturing more complex goods, that is doing everything in one place.

If you were to make such a statement to either, let's say Volvo and SAAB, they are not building cars or aeroplanes at Torslanda or in Linköping they would probably think you were joking...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Stig, my answer is complete. Next 48 hours cooling down time gives others time to collect their thoughts and possibly others chance to comment.
I decided to "waste my time" on other things in the cooling period.

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

edNorth writes:
"Bernburg/Strenzfeld was only assembly location, fuselages were from Junkers Zweigwerk-Aschersleben, like Ju 87 and Ju 88. Wings come from elsewhere etc. I find this strange still these errors abound. This has been stated many time, is marked on every dataplate."

Fact is that ALL externally visible dataplates on the three (unfortunately only two now) Swiss Ju 52, which were built at Bernburg, simply state "Junkers Flugzeug- und Motorenwerke AG Dessau", i.e. no mention of Aschersleben nor of Bernburg. There are ca. 10 such plates on each of the three aircraft.

Inncluded in the Wnr range 5901 to 5911 there were some passenger aircraft (i.e. fuselage without a r/h 'Ladeklappe'), which were most certainly NOT built at Bernburg.

Thus it seems, at least initially (i.e. for some time after production started at Bernburg) there were no complete Wnr blocks at either Dessau or Bernburg.

Gerhard

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Ok, here is my reaction. - Hello Stig, thanks for interest!, but there is fallacy in your statements - going off track in third Line.
I never proposed say other than fuselages be JFM built (and ATG/B&V/DwF), but clarification is below.

But Gerneralizing on factories there most be be just one Factory (SAAB) but in real life there are many Branch factories - One large one is "made in Taiwan" etc.
but you skip meanings and purposes of "Zweigwerk" (Branch Factory) or how JFM operated.

So you need call this JFM built (produced) Ju 52/3m (ex JFW / Ifa built before 1935) - never Bernburg built/produced, because 1937 production was from THREE main Junkers Branch Factories (Ascherleben, Halberstadt and Leopoldshall - and Bernburg was "Competion Center" but also a Zweigwerk FZB, others were FZA, FZH and FZL). FSD was Flugzeug Stammwerk Dessau, but also FSD-M (Merseburg) and others.

Please call them JFM produced, FZB assembled/delivered. This is as exact as possible (in my view). Thanks for showing this interest.

Gerhard,
Yes I have plenty of Ju 52 data(info, but the paper logbooks (covering October 1937 onwards) are all still in storage boxes - because present office is a temporary one - Very cold in winter.

But - I Happen to have pictures of the component and main dataplates on Ju 52/3m g4e W.Nr. 6595 HB-HOT - since 2012 at Reykjavik, Iceland - going on its USA tour -Indeed had Bernburg (Bb5) was stamped on JFM Dessau BAL inspection "main plate" 6.9.39 but it still had its Aschersleben ("Trager Mitte") plates (under Serie 35210.54/16) the Centre-Wing-Stubs at wing-root, that actually seem belong to the Fuselage, and these can be seen already attached on Aschersleben pic in post #4.

And copied from old file of mine (not verified figures) but explaining some beginning and progression of Ju 53/3m production.

The first Luftwaffe orders were planned for in August 1933. It contemplated that production plans for 5,845 Ju 52/3m were to be made (in meaning contracted for) by 01.04.1935.
Deliveries of this contract had already begun when on 09.03.1935 the world press was informed of the formation of the (new) Luftwaffe.
Under the ABC program 179 were ordered on 13.12.33 from ATG (wings), Hamburger Flugzeugbau/Blohm & Voss (tails and rear fuselages), Dessauer Waggon Fabrik (fuselages) and Junkers (final assembly). These were to be delivered in 1934. The aim was to exercise more metal aircraft construction (already started by ordering up to 2,000 Ju W 34 from several building firms).
Further 450 Ju 52/3m (Bombers) were ordered under the Rhineland program. Extending this, further 762 were planned (to October 1936). Further were planned for October to December 1936 (JFM 39, ATG 26). In 1937 (JFM 189, ATG 33). Total Auxiliary Bomber orders stood at 1,130 on 01.07.1937. In 1937 monthly allowance for Transport ´C´ Schools was only two per month. In 1938 (Jan to June) only JFM was scheduled for production (370) but large numbers of Auxiliary Bombers were to be rebuilt to Transport standard (285 by WFG). Until 31.12.1938 an total of 292 transports were planned. Another 1,026 were to be built between 01.01.1939 and 30.06.1941. The ATG assembly line was re-opened in 1940 due to still increasing war demand. Amiot started deliveries in late 1942. PIRT made/assembled 32 machines in 1944.

NB. Further queries or questions from Europe must be made in writing, in triplicate (by older copy methods - copy method found only in museums), X-erox not allowed, and quiery posted in Hard-cover DHL B-Mail (surface mail). That guaratees at least 28 days in delivery to my country, and then suffcent time to answer (which I do not have).

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Thanks Ed

However, nothing what you say cannot make me change my mind.
Anything which rolls of a production line as a complete unit, is also built there. Makes no difference if you are big enough to have more than one completion center. Then you simply have complete aircraft built at more than one place.

That Junkers choose to have self owned branch factories is of no real interest, except as a fact and that they were sub-suppliers to themselves....

If you want to call the final produced aircraft assembled/produced/delivered is up to you. In my book the aircraft is still built there. There is no need to complicate matters. You can choose to become an industrial researcher as well and dig ever deeper and deeper into how Germany (or other countries) used their industries, but it then gets quite a bit off track of the purpose of TOCH as I see it. At least I am not at all interested in such details, so I suggest we stick to where the aircraft was built, in this case Bernburg :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

@edNorth:
Thanks for the exhaustive explanations.

However, each time when we refer to the put-together process of an aircraft we should say "call them JFM produced, FZB assembled/delivered."? This seems to be a bit impractical, isn't it?

What does Boeing at Renton or Everett? What does Airbus at Toulouse or Finkenwerder? They build aircraft.
What does BMW at Munich or Deggendorf? They build cars.

Every big manufacturer today builds something and uses smaller or larger components to accomplish this task.

Ok, you call this technique 'to assemble', most people in the world say 'to build', and anybody knows that there are many suppliers/subcontractors are involved - today and already in 1937.

So we should no longer quibble about words.

Coming to the (unfortunate) HB-HOT:
The part plates on this aircraft have some stamps on them which I cannot identify:


Any idea?

Gerhard

Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?
 

Nothing never ever will change my mind.
Several Japansese manufacturers have dedicated assembly factories in UK, Europe or USA. Why use word "built", when components already built. How correct is that?

Pictured both plates 2012 and others. Leopoldshall made tail parts.
Lhf VII (Leitwerk höhenflosse), Lhr VI (Leitwerk höhenruder), Lqr was there too, as stated abowe. But some plates were "newer" than others.
But re pate stamps on that plane, I am not expert in stamps (belive different departments possibly, even individuals, but L for Leipzig was I think ATG, but I have confusing notes on JFM Leipzig too re-Ju 86) but these plates are most likely Leopoldshall.