Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Hi fellow air history devotees - I very much need your help. I am modeling an Heinkel He 111H-3 and would like to use my decal collection to model 1H+FN (WNr. 3935) during September 11, 1940. I have read on a/c history / model sites that the subject was an H-3 and was damaged on that date during an attack on London but returned to base in Gilze-Rijen. Nonetheless, the book of a/c illustrations, "Luftwaffe: Bomber Camouflage and Markings 1940 - Heinkel He.111, Junkers Ju.88, Dornier Do.17" compiled by Peter G. Cooksley and Richard Ward, text by Christopher F. Shores, shows the 1H+FN during that Sept. 11 time to be an He 111P and not an H-3.
Questions: (1) was 1H+FN an He111P or an He 111H-3, (2) can you provide a reference showing it to be an H-3, and, someone said the verification is through the “EoE Luft Loss DB” but can’t find it, so (3) please name in full what “EoE Luft Loss DB” stands for, and (4) where I can find it?
Vielen Dank, Dave:)

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Luftwaffe records state H-3 but the Wk Nr would possible indicate an early H-5? I might be wrong on both counts!


EoE DB is a work in progress not a source for information

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Dave

I can confirm that WNr 3935 was indeed a He 111 H-5 as Chris says.

Without a photo it is difficult to know exactly what 1H+FN was, but I have not a single registered He 111 P as being allocated to KG 26, so most likely it was at least a He 111 H

Cheers
Stig

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Hi,

according to the Gen.Qu. loss return from 19 Sep 1940 item 7 the unit code of the WNr. 3935 was 1H+EM. On 25 Sep 1940 this entry was corrected: Ergänzung/addition: Berichtige Kennzeichen in: "1H + EN".

Regards
Leo

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Ok, here goes. Version of "3935" 1H+EN (corrected) & clearly not 1H+FN on 11.09.40 was H-3
(clear misread from GQM as 3 and 5 are very similar on this German Typewriter)
- pic of BAMA Microfiche scan shows this clearly.

-but catch is: 3935 was not yet produced, and was (in range with other) H-5 made in early 1941.

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Hi,

in the Gen.Qu. loss return from 28 June 1941 item 67 is listed:
26.6. II./KG 55 He 111 H-8 3935 G1+IM 100%. The Lt Stork crew was KIA.

Regards
Leo

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Wikipedia:

The H-8 was a rebuild of H-3 or H-5 aircraft, but with balloon cable-cutting fender. The H-8 was powered by Jumo 211 D-1s.

Rottler (above) is exemplifying an exception (conversion), not main range, as my individual a/c list show main range be H-5s (Jumo 211 H´s & VDM props) from about 3508 to past 4038 when H-6 take over (Jumo 211 F´s with VS 11 props).
However not all is processed, Ju 88´s still have priority.

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Indeed Ed

It is admittedly a high WNr being a H-5 and it seems at least KG 26 never listed any in that range during 1940. First recorded loss in the WNr 39xx range seems to be 3953 on 20 May 1941.

I checked what Steenbeck in his KG 26 book states and I don't know how he has to come to such a conclusion, but he more or less sits on two horses here... :)
11/9 He 111 H-3 WNr 6936 1H+EN oder WNr 3935 1H+FN II./KG 26 etc, etc

So if it cannot be 3935 on that date, from where does Steenbeck gets his WNr 6936?? Could that in fact be valid?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Ed
According to Volker Koos the H-5 were WNr 3501 - 3700, 3733 - 4092. WNr 3701 - 3732 were H-3 for Romania.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Hello Stig,

the source for Steenbeck's 6936 is the Gen.Qu. loss return from 13 Sep 1940 item 9:
11.9. 5./KG 26 Feindflug, Ort: Gilze-Rijen, Ursache: Bauchlandung infolge Feindbeschuß, He 111 H-3 6936 1H+EN 40%.

Regards
Leo

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Thanks Leo

And the verdict is? :)
I mean, are we talking about two different aircraft or only one (where Steenbeck could not decide which one was correct)?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Hello Stig,

I think that the Gen.Qu. loss return from 13 Sep 1940 is correct (He 111 H-3 WNr. 6936 5./KG 26 1H+EN 40% damage on 11 Sep 1940).
By the way the first recorded losses in the WNr. 39xx range were 3973 (6 April 1941) as well as 3900 and 3906 (13 April 1941).

Regards
Leo

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Stig, I do not have interest at all in what your favourite Volker Koos has found out or not. I do not always agree with him (or others) or findings re W.Nrs., but I am not out here stating why.
Please bear that in mind.

My remark re 35xx to 40xx range is based on my own observation (lets call that research) and you are continiuing to irritate me with frequent quotations to him or others.
My resarch is not definite - as I have said many times - I am not copying him or other works - and me finding out W.Nr. 3935 - did not fit time period is entierly my own. I have further info on building times in that range supporting my "claim".
Also small H-3 range for others in that large range is irrelevant - but you need realise differene between H-3 or H-5 is how equipped / amamament / no tanks internally in H-3 - but essentilly same airplane re production.
Please bear that in mind.

Ed

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

"(He 111 H-3 WNr. 6936 5./KG 26 1H+EN 40% damage on 11 Sep 1940)".

I think now this is correct one - version H-3 and W.Nr 69xx are not appearently wrong, (others in 68xx/69xx range known flying with Westa´s summer 1940), other later one possibly be duplicate, without discounting 1H+EM also was involved.

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Thanks Leo (and Ed)

Seems we are in agreement about WNr 6936 :)

Sorry Ed

Not out to irritate you, far from that, and yes I like Volker, since he has always answered my sometimes stupid questions. His background is behind the wall but he always is very knowledgeable and his manner is...well likeable. Actually sometimes a little bit like you, frustrated about us novices... :)

Not saying he is 100% correct (who is??), but so far I have not seen anyone challenging his statements.

Have you found anything wrong with his WNr findings?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Putting aside the work number, could 1H+FN be an H-3 in September 1940? See,
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_parnall.htm ,
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=216310 , http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-30551.html
:confused:

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

hi,

there exist many photos of this machine, lying on the beach and later used as a shooting-target. the unit-code was 1h+fn. it is interesting to see that the luftwaffe made mistakes although it was correct before...

all the best
jim

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Sorry about late comments to this posting. It can be proven beyond any doubts that He 111 W.Nr. 3935 was a He 111H-5.
First reference is in documents kept by Deutsches Museum in München:
Übersichtsliste der Änderungsanweisungen He 111 von 1. July 1943, page 17:
He 111H-5 all produced by Ernst Heinkel Flugzeugwerke in Rostock (EHF) W.Nr. 3586 to 3700 and 3773 to 4092.
Werk-Nummern between 3501 and 3585 can be documented in the same records. These Werk-Nummern show a production run of a total of 560 He 111H-5 aircraft.

This figure can be documented in two records kept by Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg. First RL 3/991 C-Amts-Program Lieferplan Nr. 18
von 1. November 1940: He 111H-5 total on order 570 aircraft. Delivered up to 31.10.1940: 265 aircraft. Remaining 305 aircraft to be delivered from November 1940 to May 1941.

RL 3/994 C-Amts-Program Lieferplan Nr. 19 von 15. March 1941. Here the total on order is reduced by 10 aircraft to 560, which turned out to be the final and correct number.

Re: Was 1H+FN an Heinkel He111P or an He 111H-3 & Other Questions
 

Thanks Björn

Seems to me this confirms Volker Koos' findings as well.

Cheers
Stig