Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

These five airmen were originally buried in the cemetery at Oberlagen Concentration Camp, all have the same date of death, so presumably they crashed in that area, they are now buried at Reichwald Forest War Cemetery, any ideas on who they could be ?

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Do you mean Oberlangen, or is that a different one?

Not that I have any answer for you but just checking we're all starting off in the correct direction.

Ian

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Oberlangen CC was north of Haren, close to the Dutch border

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

On fold3 the AAF MACR section also includes monthly summaries of all allied crashes. For 26 November 1943 there is recorded the crash of a Lancaster at "Niederlangen West of Meppen". On Google maps there is a Niederlangen North of Meppen and directly adjacent to Oberlangen. "KU" number is 116600. Might be a possibility.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Thanks for the info, we now need to ID this Lancaster, obviously.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Perhaps DV297, five crew remembered on the Runnymede Memorial, 9ne crew (RCAF) at the Berlin 1939-1945 War Cemetery, and one crew (USAAF) remembered on the walls of the missing at the US Military Cemetery Margraten.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Thanks Alex,
The first contender, I expect a few more, in time, I have a CWGC list of all other unknown airmen in the Reichwald cemetery, if you are interested please PM me an email address.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

This list of "unknown" crash locations shows 7 Lancasters from the 26/27 Nov 1943 raid.
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lan...crashsites.pdf

Included on the list is DV297. Not all of those listed actually seem to have 5 (or more) missing crewmen, but some others in that category are DV339 DS723 and DS679. These 4 are included in the appendix of Alan W Cooper's book "Bombers Over Berlin" which is about the RAF Berlin offensive from November 1943 to March 1944. The raid on 26/27 November was the 4th raid in the series of raids.

For the remaining planes of the seven on the list above, DV247 had only two men killed. DV268 had six men killed but they were buried in Sage War Cemetery. JB350 had five killed but they were buried in Berlin. Information on all these planes is according Cooper's book, so perhaps it needs to be verified elsewhere. Cooper does include the crew names.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

We now have a new, and most likely contender, thanks to John Manrho, its a Halifax, or possibly a Lancaster, down at Niederlangen, 22.45 Hrs, 26.11.43, this is about 1km north of where these guys were buried.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Hello,
The other Runnymede Names that are under 26/11/43 that I could match were -

STIRLING, R.J.T - F/O - 130875 - RAFVR - 21 SQN - Mosquito HX906.
HARRIS, G.H.R - F/O - 136362 - RAFVR - 100 SQN.
CHEETHAM, W.C - F/Sgt - 658945 - RAF - 180 SQN.
ROOTS, D - Sgt - 1333024 - RAFVR - 180 SQN
WHELAN, T.N - Sgt - 1330368 - RAFVR - 180 SQN.
180 Sqn a/c was Mitchell II - FL205.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Re: HARRIS, G.H.R. - F/O 136362 - RAFVR - 100 SQN:

26/27 Nov 1943
550 Sqn
Lancaster III LM379:BQ-S
Op: Berlin

T/o 1721 Grimsby. Set on fire and abandoned in the vicinity of Potsdam.F/L Frangley, who was last seen at the controls, was buried at Potsdam and it was not far from this city that Sgt Ward was recovered from the River Hamel. Of those who died, three* [sic] lie in Berlin 1939-1945 War Cemetery while F/O Harris has no known grave.

F/L P J M Prangley +
Sgt A K Ward +
F/O G H R F Harris +
P/O J W Lowe - PoW
F/S F W Smith - PoW
Sgt R Redfern +
Sgt F C Diggle +

* Should read four. (see: http://www.rafinfo.org.uk/bcww2losses/1943.htm. 1943/406 550/LM379.

Note. These were the first casualties suffered by 550 Squadron, which formed the previous day at Grimsby from C Flight of 100 Squadron. The CWGC registers shows the deceased as belonging to 100 Squadron.

See: BCL4/406.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Hello Col,

Thanks for details on Harris, don't know how I missed that .

Have not as far as I know answered the original question about the unknown airmen but have details of all 35 of those on Runnymede Memorial for the date given.

AUSTRALIA
CONROY, D.J - F/Sgt - 418632 RAAF.- 26 OTU - Wellington X - HE855.
MARTIN, V.A - P/O - 417096 - RAAF - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV339 "QR-W".
McALPINE, J.G - P/O - 408917 - RAAF - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV339 "QR - W".
HARRIS, H.W - P/O - 414024 - RAAF - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV339 "QR-W".

NEW ZEALAND
MURPHY, M.J - W/O - 37213 - RNZAF - 83 Sqn - Lancaster III - JA686 - "OL-K".

CANADA
BROWN, C.M - F/Lt - J/20377 - RCAF - 97 Sqn - Lancaster III - JB221 - "OF-W".
DAVIS, K. G - W/O - R/117353 - RCAF - DFM - 83 Sqn - Lancaster III - JA913 - "OL-G".
MILLAR, K.R.G - P/O - J/18310 - RCAF - 83 Sqn - Lancaster III - JA913 - "OL - G".
VAREY, B.H - F/Sgt - R/182204 - RCAF - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV339 - "QR-O".
STEPHENS, J.A - F/O - J/20202 - RCAF - 61 Sqn - DV297 - "QR-O".

Alex

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

The other men missing from DV339 are:

Sgt Eric Vine: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...40/vine,-eric/

PO Sydney Heald: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...heald,-sydney/

Sgt Harold Sewell Oldfield: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...harold-sewell/

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Alex

The German authorities actually had the names and numbers of the seven members of No.61 Sqn Lancaster I DV339 (suggesting burials). The International Red Cross Committee in Switzerland was notified in Totenliste 202, they quoted the K Report as "KE 7157". Could you check that out on Fold 3?

See: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...aspx?B=1073798 see: p.12 of 67.

Col.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Hold on Lads,
I just had an email from the CWGC, their records show that the Five came from a Lancaster down at Sustrum, very close to Niederlangen, 26.11.1943,
So these five could be part of PO Mc Alpine's crew, but how to prove it? How many other Lancaster's were listed as missing that night.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Attachment 17257


This may help...or hinder.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Sustrum, Niederlangen and Oberlangen are adjacent to each other. Sustrum is the northernmost, it adjoins Niederlangen to the south and below Niederlangen is Oberlangen All within 2 to 3 miles.

Fold3 has 3 (different??) Lancasters listed that seem to have crashed in this area. The second one has "DtD 308 C" in the "markings" column. (May have been a typo of some sort with the lower case "t". (If the plane blew up at altitude and some large pieces were scattered about, perhaps the Germans thought they had multiple crashes.)

So starting with the one mentioned previous, we have:

26 Nov 43 /(no time)/Lancaster / / Niederlangen West of Meppen / 116600

26 Nov 43 /22:30 / Lancaster/ DtD 308 C / Sustrum near Erdhuette, Inn / 116648/116649


26 Nov 43 /22:30 / Lancaster / / near highway Niederlangen-Sustrum / 116580-116581


Note the last column is normally the "KU", "KE", "A.V." (etc,) numbers, but the lists will include the prefix letters.

These 3 Lancasters just show numbers, so are they some other type of report or a location?

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Hello,

Had to brake off during my earlier post, so to continue here follows the UK losses.

UK

CALMAN, D. H - F/O - 130287 - RAFVR - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I -DV297 - "QR-O".
COGDELL, C.J.B - P/O - 159885 - RAFVR - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV297 - "QR-O".
SMITH, E - Sgt - 1139609 - RAFVR - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV297 - "QR-O".
STRANGE, A.P.E - P/O - 155793 - RAFVR - 61 Sqn - Lancaster I - DV297 - "QR-O".
Also in this crew was-
JOHNSON, EDWARD .F - Sgt - 10601041 USAAF.

HEALD, S - P/O - 160862 - RAF - 61 Sqn Lancaster I - DV339 - "QR-W".
OLDFIELD, H.S - Sgt - 1322967 - RAFVR - Lancaster I - DV339 - "QR-W".
VINE, E - Sgt - 1624673 - RAFVR - Lancaster I - DV339 - "QR-W".

ALDERSON-HILLER, J - F/O - 123518 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 83 Sqn - JA686 - "OL-K".

BIRKS, F. R - Sgt - 1430538 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 83 Sqn - JA913 - "OL - G".
PENNELLS, R. H - F/Sgt - 1391441 RAFVR - DFM - Lancaster III - 83 Sqn - JA913 - "OL-G".
KING, M.N - F/Sgt - 1335800 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 83 Sqn - JA913 - "OL-G".
HARSLEY, J.H.S - F/Sgt - 1380381 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 83 Sqn - JA913 - "OL-G".
STACEY, S.T - W/O -1169401 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - JA913 - "OL-G".

TUTT, B. F - Sgt - 1384140 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 97 Sqn - JB221 - "OF-W".
WATSON, T - P/O - 161042 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 97 Sqn - JB221 - "OF-W".

GREEN, W.A - Sgt - 1591531 - RAFVR - Lancaster I - 166 Sqn - DV387 - "AS-W".
HOWELL, D. J - Sgt - 1386465 - RAFVR - Lancaster I - 166 Sqn - DV387 - "AS-W".

MATTHEWS, L. H - P/O - 53821 - RAF - 408 Sqn - 408 Sqn Lancaster II - DS723 - "EQ-B".

KEMPSELL, J. C - P/O - 162955 - RAF - Lancaster III - 619 Sqn - EE111 - "PG-S".

BOLT, N - Sgt - 1836087 - RAFVR - Lancaster III - 625 Sqn - ED809 - "CF-T".

Total 35.

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Dear all,

Most interesting thread -could this fit to the following NJ claim that I wasn't able to match to a known bomber loss during the writing of the 1943 NCA series?:

Fw. Rudolf Frank 2./NJG3 Lancaster W. Quakenbrück (Leghorn/3 C): 5.500 m. 22.22 unidentified. Note: claim (achieved in Ju88 C-6 D5+AK, t/o Wittmundhafen 21.33 hrs, landing Wittmundhafen 23.58 hrs) not listed in OKL/RLM 2./NJG3 Confirmed Abschussübersicht

Cheers, Theo

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

May be nothing, but regards to 166 Sqn Lancaster III - DV247 - "AS-F".
Two of her crew are in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery. The other five became POW's.
What if anything is known of the fate of those five, did they survive the war ?

Re: Five unknown airmen, 26.11.1943.
 

Alex, the five surviving crewmen of DV247 were sent to several different Camps. Thomas to Stalag 357, Robshaw and Edwards to Stalag/(Oflag) LVI, Bell to Stalag/(Oflag) LIII, and Davies to Stalag IV-B. I think they all survived, but even if they did not survive, they would not have been buried back in Oberlangen.

Regarding Theo's post, Quakenbrück is not that far away (maybe 30 miles or so) and if the night fighter attack occurred to the west of Quakenbrück it would put the attack even closer to the Oberlangen area. Given the times and the distances involved, it would seem that Rudolf Frank could well have shot down the Lancaster we are trying to identify.

Col Bruggy,

It appears that Fold3 does not start showing KE numbers for British planes until early in 1944. For example, a Halifax that crashed March 14, 1944 has number KE 7863.
I think the six digit numbers may be microfilm roll numbers or frame numbers. As you noted regarding page 12 on the link you gave, it appears the Germans did know "all" the DV339 crew names and their serial numbers when they buried "all" of them somewhere, (maybe at Oberlangen).

Since the DV399 crew consisted of seven men and apparently only five bodies were later moved from Oberlangen (none being identified), I wonder if something happened at Oberlangen which destroyed/damaged the graves and/or the detailed records of the burials. It seems there is still a "gap". We can't say for certain that the bodies at Oberlangen were from DV339.


The file the Col referenced for Martin seems to be the Australian version of the USAAF IDPF file.

Here is the same file for McAlpine:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...073003&T=P&S=1

And Harris:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...069737&T=P&S=1