85. Squadron 1941
 

Hello,

In the excellent book "The Blitz, then and now", Vol. 3, page 44 it says, that on the night 13./14. 1941, a He 111 was shot down by a Havoc mk. 1 flown by Flight Ltn. Raphael and Aircr.man Addison from 85. Squadron.


Is the code of their plane known? VY - ?


Thank you in advance,


Christian

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Hello Christian.
In the original Aces High book by Shores there is a drawing of a Havoc coded VY-V with the caption stating it is a Havoc II flown by Raphael in 1942.
In a later release of the book he states Raphael frequently flew VY-U and VY-V, but is not clear on when.
Hope this helps
Peter

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Hello,

F/L Raphael was flying Havoc I VY-E on 13/14 June, 1941 (No.85 Sqn ORB, F.541).

Col.

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Thanks Col!

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Thank you very much gentlemen, that is highly appreciated!!

Regards,

Christian

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Col

With regard to Shores/Williams' book Aces High (1994 edition) they don't list this claim at all. Was it never officially accepted or should I interpret this as a mistake and Raphael should in fact be listed for 8 destroyed instead of the now given 7?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Which claim do you mean, Stig?
I think Christian is referring to a claim on either 13/14 May 1941 or 13/14 July 1941, and as he refers to the Blitz I'd guess it was May.
I'm not sure Col was saying there was a kill on 13/14 June 1941, just that Raphael flew VY-E on that night.
And on checking my later edition, purchased used on Abebooks a year or so ago, I only just noticed my copy was signed by Shores on 16/8/94. :)
Peter

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Sorry Peter

Just noticed Christian did not state any month in his request, but page 44 of "the Blitz" vol 3 specifically is June and there is a claim made by F/Lt Raphael during the night of 13/14 June.
I planned to update my Aces High with Col's data (VY-E) and was surprised the date was absent.
At first I thought it must be a mistake somewhere, since we have claims the same night in both May and July as well, but no, these claims are also valid.

So I am in fact a bit puzzled :confused: :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Hi guys

An aside: Wg Cdr Raphael erroneously shot down a Havoc (AH514) of his own Squadron on the night of 2/3 June 1941.

Cheers
Brian

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Thanks for the clarification, Stig

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Gentlemen,

I was very careful in my wording of Post #3. First I had to determine the month that Christian was referring to - easily enough done - because he quoted his source (The Blitz Then and Now Vol.3, p.44). Having determined that the month was June. I then consulted John Foreman's, The Turning Point Part 2, pp.308-11. Foreman describes the loss of a I./KG28 Heinkel, but in his opinion the larger part of the destruction of the Heinkel should be ascribed to No.151 Squadron's, P/O Richard Payne Stevens. Be that as it may, I then checked the 85 Sqn ORB for June, 1941 (F.541), to check the letter of Raphael's Havoc (Christian's original question), it is quoted as VY-E. The 85 Sqn ORB also mentions a probable He111 claim by Raphael, on the same night.

I also checked TTP2/215 (13/14 May, 1941), there are no claims made by Raphael, nor any comparable He111 losses. Also consulted the Luftwaffe Crash Archive, Vol.8 (p.965) - no He111 losses there either.

Took a look at Foreman's Fighter Command War Diaries, Vol.2 (p.198 & 213), and his RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims, Part Two (pp.46 & 52-3) - confirms above remarks.

What we make of Aces High 1/2, I have no idea!

Col.

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Thanks Brian

Interesting update

Cheers
Stig

Re: 85. Squadron 1941
 

Thanks Col

It looks like a printing error then in Aces High. Instead of 13/14 May we should read 13/14 June.

Thanks for checking

Cheers
Stig