Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=602

http://forum. 12oclockhigh.net/album...&pictureid=603

These photos were posted today on the site in Jon Olsen's post no. 1 in this thread:

forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51951

The poster credits the source as:

www.14thad.org/398thaaa/

via Marc-Andre Haldimand.

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Very cool, Jim! Thank you for sharing this this. :)

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Here's some info about this Me 262 from the Falk Eins blog. David Brown has studied it in detail. Any guesses about its W.Nr.? Judging from the navigation light on the rudder, it's from an early production W. Nr. series
http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/0...oband.html?m=1

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Sorry, Jon. I can't make out the werknummer.

This may be another view of it.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=604

This photo was originally posted by David E. Brown in post No. 15 of this thread:

giving source

Also the spelling in the title of this thread should be Moosburg, north-east of Munich, found about 15 km. SW of Landshut.

The following thread gives more information:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=36948

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Thanks, Jim :) That's a great picture, and lots of useful information in that link. So according to David, this Me 262 was probably from the 1105xx or 1106xx W.N.r series. That's something! I'd be curious to know how he was able to identify this machine as specifically being from the 110xxx rather than 170xxx series (or even the 130xxx series) According to David, Me 262s from these three series were fitted with the same type of early navigation light. In the older thread from the link you posted he did mention something about the style of camouflage and national markings, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Gents,

Those are great photos and assist with research on this machine that I believe it comes from the late 1105xx to 1106xx(ish) werknummer series.

I base this on its original underlying camouflage of RLM 81/82 uppersurfaces with a light overspray of RLM 76 over the lower half of the fuselage to create a reverse mottle effect. This is characteristic of machines from the 1105xx to 1106xx series. Over this was oversprayed a wellen pattern of a dark colour, my guess a green shade. These machines also have the faired-in tail light that disappeared after this group to be replaced by the small bulb type. The national markings styles fit with the series too. The blue and white KG(J) 54 small style karoband is definitive to its I. Gruppe, and is the painted over “Totenkopfwappen” on the nose exhibiting the same dimensions and position visible on other aircraft.

Based on the available photographs, it is possible to see how its V-kenn. changed through time:

• February(?) to mid-March 1945: “B3+??” - I./KG(J)54
• Mid-March to late April 1945: “ge.10+” – 3./KG(J) 54 (addition of dark green wellen and muting / overpainting of unit markings)
• Late April to early May 1945: “3+” – I./KG(J) 54? (addition of '3' over existing number '10')

Who the pilot was is a mystery but definitely someone who did not want to partake in Russian hospitality when they arrived in Prague on 8/9 May.

Best,

David

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Great! Thank you very much, David, for this detailed information. :)

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Sorry David,

Speculation and ridiculous.

There is no emblem on this machine "overpainted with a brush".
There is no over sprayed square checkers with "RLM 81 Braune-Violet" ... In that case the guys would have taped the cross and black squares and since the contrast between "red" and "black" is exactly the same than on other machines... even with a "thin layer".

Show me the emblem, at least, then I will agree; if not ... Just inacceptable speculation.

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

...
Here is a different print of the same photo:
Show me the emblem !

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Thank you for sharing, David. I thought I saw a "10".

My apologies. I was careless. The link to the second picture should have been:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/album....&pictureid=603

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

David,

Is that a red "3" on the nose door? and does the history of Me 262 A-2a 110662 fit?

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi Jim,

No to the Werknummer; likely yes for the number 3 that it is red.

Regarding the wappen, it is not visible in the presented image. It is in another.

David

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi David,

The reason I ask is that I noticed a document on page 146 of Brown et al., Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations. (2012) that reads in part:

"(Rote) 3 (1o) 11o662 …

1. Ausbidungs-Kommando II./KG(J) 54 …

Oblt. Kornagel was killed in "Red 1" as Ausbildung-Kommando II./KG(J) 54 was departing on 28th April 1945; the remaining aircraft, i.e. "Red 2" and "Red 3" flew over to Munchen-Riem the following day."

I wondered whether the "(1o)" referred to its previous V-kenn.

Also I found in deZeng and Stankey:

"SPADIUT, Dr. Herbert … 29.04.45 Hptm., II./KG(J) 54 lost Me 262 (B3+Red2) shot up by strafers vic Erding. 30.04.45 flew his last mission in the Prague-Muenchen area [sic]…

PAUKNER, ? , 29.04.45 Lt., II./KG(J) 54 lost Me 262 A-1 (B3+Red4) [sic] shot up by strafers at Erding."

Erding is about 15 km. from Moosburg.

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi Jim,

My previous brief missive was from a church hall and thus not accessible to my files (and memory for that matter...). Thanks for the reminder. I have lots of projects and files on the go (Luftwaffe and Panzerwaffe) keeping track becomes a challenge.

For some background, I have been studying this aircraft for 30 years and came back to it from time to time. Bit by bit more information and insights were revealed as photos appear, though none crisp and sharp. And documentary material, well, scraps at best. Radtke (1990) mentions four aircraft II./KG(J) 54 (Reds 1-4) and that they were lost, one to a crash landing at Prag-Rusin (ro.1), and the remaining three destroyed by Allied fighter-bomber attacks at Fürstenfeldbuck (ro.3), and Erding (ro.2 and ro.4). Three unidentified machines appear in the listing on page 271 dated 4 April but assigned to I. Gruppe. and two at Innsbruck on 8 May. No source documents are noted but there must have been some source.

The document in the JaPo book (2012) has much greater detail on these machines. Suffice to say that there remains some data gaps. And as I have written in the past (prior to the book's writing and publication), its physical attributes put "10 / 3" as an A-2a in the mid-1105xx to 1106xx production group. This document identifies that aircraft as 110662. Yet it took some time to get a clear view to confirm without a doubt the presence of the '10', whereas the '3' was visible in the four o'clock view in Jim Crow's photo from the mid 1980s (its first known image, and incorrectly identified as being at Herzogenaurach).

For the record, until the document's discovery, I had it narrowed down to 110662, 110665, and 110668 per Dan O'Connell's and Radtke's listings. The first werknummer was the most promising, but still... A colleague of mine and I recently had access to the original of the recent side view photo and except for the last digit, the remainder were just readable. But most importantly, the '10' was at last clearly seen - that clinched it for certain.

So, while hedging my interpretation over the years, based on all these data and the new image, the machine can be identified as 110662.

Cheers,

David

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Ah, thank you, David.

Now to figure out who was the pilot.

Thanks again,

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi Jim,

Thank you for keeping this thread alive. I appreciate our correspondence, and your interest and insights on these colourful birds.

I must say that the new frontal view of the aircraft was a God-send. The '3' was clear on the nose wheel door, and I was delighted to see the yellow and white painted nose that added even more confirmation this was a KG(J) 54 kite. As stated, in the earlier photos the '3' could be seen but not clearly, and the '10' was frustrating hard to discern. At first it looked like the '1' was a fuel stain.

Nevertheless, all the pieces have fallen into place. I guess two questions remain: who was its pilot, and where did the other machine end up? More fun...!

All the best,

David

PS: I forgot to mention I am wrapping up research on Steinhoff's last aircraft and it will be published through Andrew and Morton's website. Might be time to step back from Me 262s and look at other things piling up on the desk (and finish a tank kit for the local show in April!).

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi David,

I look forward to seeing your article on Steinhoff's bird. Your insights have always been thoughtful and carefully presented.

I wish you well in whatever endeavours you choose.

Jim

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Thanks Jim,

The collaborative spirit exhibited by members of this discussion board is exemplary, and collectively we have generated much new knowledge and information on the Luftwaffe.

Best,

David

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg / thanks
 

and I thanks you two for sharing your knowledge with all the members interested by your answers.
Best Regards.
Rémi Baudru

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

All,

David and I have been going over this airplane from nose to tail for a few weeks now. We've confirmed it is W. Nr. 110662, both through documentary and photographic evidence. I have the original photo that Franck posted above. Scanned at 4800dpi, we were able to clearly see 11066, and the last digit was either a 2 or an 8. Documentary evidence showed it was a 2. The KG(j)54 emblem is painted over as well, but not visible in that photo. We have three shots of this airplane, from the front, 1/4 front and direct profile. It is all pretty plain to see when comparing all three photos.

Scanned at 4800dpi, the "10" is plainly visible, in fact moreso than the Red 3.

This machine was captured by the 398th AAA AW Bn and there are two photos of it on the 398th webpage: http://www.14thad.org/398thaaa/index.cfm

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

And the show continues !
Show evidences ! Only words but no evidences
Show evidences ...
:)

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

And you'll see all of the evidence when it's published. Patience.

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Where is Moosberg? There´s only Moosburg a/d Isar sw of Landshut.
"Moosberg" leeds you into nowhere in different parts of Germany and Austria...

Regards
RolandF

Re: Photos of Me 262 at Moosberg
 

Hi Roland,

You are absolutely correct. See my post #4.

If you know how to change the spelling in the title of a thread, please let me know.

Jim