Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi there Gang,

I stumbled on this Re 2002 photo depicting "DV+CJ".
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-WW...UAAOSwEqVcPjQ3

Any insights about location and unit ?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi Marc,

The other photos were taken at Reims/Champagne. The US intelligence report for Reims does not mention any Re 2002, only a "French Trainer - Was used by the Germans". But the Do 217, Me 410, Fw 190 are mentioned.

Cheers,
Roger

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

I noticed that it had "FOLKE WOLF, LEON" written on it but it's neither a Focke-Wulf, nor one of the three machines found at Lyon-Bron. There is a Werk Nummer (or an Italian Matricola Militare) in white on the fuselage near the tail but I couldn't make it out.

It looks like a Geschwader Bongart machine but not one I've come across, and the unit used so many bases it would be hard to narrow down.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi Nick

The name Leon refers to Leon Walker Jnr of the 734th Field Artillery Battalion. The style/markings are all consistent with late production Re2002s. As the location is Reims it could be a Geschwader Bongart assigned aircraft but cannot say for certain as the Flg.Ziel Geschwader also used this type in large numbers. The MM number is 1283. Hope this helps - Tom

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the explanation — I just took "Leon" for more dodgy spelling! It certainly appears to have all the Bongart characteristics give or take a fuselage tactical number (which they often had alongside the four-letter code). Thanks also for the MM — 1281 and 1282 served with Bongart incidentally.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi All

The numbers 1281, 1282 and 1283 listed above are not MM numbers.

201 Re 2002 were ordered
prototype MM458
1st production MM7309 - MM7408
2nd production MM8644 - MM8743

While under production only MM8644-MM8668, MM8670-MM8704, MM8706-MM8707, MM8718-MM8719 are known to have been delivered to Italy, while the other 35 under production and supposedly delivered to Luftwaffe received these odd numbers, possibly Reggiane c/ns. I have not really tried to check if it fits at all. They are all listed in German loss records as WNr (I think??)

Known numbers are
1110, 1117, 1119, 1120, 1150, 1156, 1176, 1178, 1183, 1209, 1213, 1220, 1222, 1223, 1225, 1230, 1231, 1238, 1248, 1240, 1249, 1250, 1251, 1252, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1260, 1262, 1264, 1265, 1267, 1274, 1281, 1282, 1283, 1284, 1285, 1293
making 39 in all but having a span of 184 numbers. As far as I know there is no complete c/n list regarding Reggiane production.

I have two photos where the number can be read
1) (white 7). and at least to me, it says WkN 1119 and
2) very clearly, WKN 1222.
I expect that "MM1281 - 1283" also carried the words WkN or WKN in front of their digits and not MM.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi
I agree with Stig on the number being the c/n

A doc found at the PRO says c/n 1252 found at Valance 1944

Tony

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Article in French and photo DV+??, W.Nr 1256 https://www.lepopulaire.fr/limoges/a...1.html#refresh
Kris

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Thanks Nick/Chris

I should have stated that the first 100 Re 2002 were of course all delivered, but I was too focused on the 2nd production batch

Cheers
Stig

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Many thanks, Roger, Nick, Tom, Stig and Kris for shedding some lights on this Re 2002 and beyond.

Thanks to this positive W.Nr. ID, still hoping to verify its location at Reims - as you point it out, Roger.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

The A.I.2(g) report on Reims is frustrating, mentioning only “French trainer aircaft used by Germans” and “French fighter aircraft”,. (At Lyon the investigators called the Re. 2002 “Fiat G.50”)

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hello,
on one of the photos, we see the village of Brimont located north of the base on the hill.
The village was home to a Fort where aircraft parts were stored, following the many bombings.
cordially
Joel

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi Stig and et al
Thanks for your W/Nr & MM lists. I too have these but one error I think - You give 1176 while I have 1175. Is yours correct or is mine? Also mine were compiled many years ago - far to long for me to remember the source. Can you help?
Also there are some other MM numbers associated with German use - I have from 5217 to 5231 but I have a lone 5343 which could be a typo for 5243? (15 a/c plus one).
The photo of DV+CJ with the 1283 does have WKN although hard to make out. I suggest that these numbers are what can be termed as RLM Numbers. There is a correlation with the MM Numbers but I do not know what these are. Other examples of these RLM numbers are with Italian built SM82s and Dutch built Do24s, there must be others but I have no known examples.
There were two production ranges with Caproni and Reggianne but I have no certain examples but suggest that the 52 series are from Caproni. Are there any Italian aviation experts who can help here?
Regards - Tom

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Nick, Joel and Tom,

Many thanks for all the details/insights, they are highly appreciated.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi Tom

Not home at the moment, but my listing was compiled from an Italian book published by Georgio Apostolo (I think the author's name is Govi). There were three Reggiane books in total and this was Vol 2.
Cannot check if I was hamfisted or not until back...

I agree with your thoughts regarding RLM numbers, quite possible indeed

Cheers
Stig

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hi everybody,

The "training airplane" found at Reims was a Fiat G-50 flyable only for transfer. Written on the fuselage : Nur Überführungsklar.

JCM

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Dear all,

I tried to integrate the original information found in the Reggiane archive with your information and the information from Nick Beale's site.
Basically Mr. Govi probably didn't know that most of the factory frame nr. had a correspondent M.M., even for the Luftwaffe planes.
In other words: the german W.Nr. should be the factory frame nr.

Here's the link:

http://www.reggiane.info/unita-3.html
At the moment it's only in italian but in the following months it will be translated also into English.

Question from my side: do you still have the picture of DV+JC ?
If you find corrections to be done or things that can be added, please let me know

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

I kept a copy (attached) for my own research but I don't own any rights to it.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Thank you very much Nick

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Tanzebau,
That's a nice website with a lot of useful information!
Andy

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

I did a quick check of my uncle's Flugbuch, and he did two five minute tests in Reggiane 2002 Werk Nummer 1180 on May 25, 1944 at Estree en Chaussee.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

@AndyMa: thanks, I hope it can be useful. There will be a major update in the next days for RE2001 and RE2002 regarding operations by royal italian air force.

@VtwinVince: thanks for the information ! Do you also know the Luftwaffe markings (such as DV+JC) ?

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Unfortunately no Luftwaffe code is listed.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Do you know at which Luftwaffe unit was he belonging on that day ?

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Yes, he was Major and Kommandeur of III. Fliegerzielgeschwader 2.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

1944-09-13, 2./Fl.Ziel.G 2, Re 2002, 5234, SU+TZ, Bhf. Menden bei Bonn-Hangelar
Flugzeugführer Lt Rülcke, Günther, +
Eigene Flakbeschuß. Bruch ? %.

1944-09-08, 2./Fl.Ziel.G 2, Re 2002, 5231, Autobahn bei Köln-Holweide
Flugzeugführer Uffz Hagemann, Heinrich, +
Eigene Flabeschuß. Bruch 90 %.

Matti

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Hello Matti, thanks.

Do you have any other information about lost RE2001 or RE2002 with the Luftwaffe ?

I know that Unteruffz. Fallert left a RE2002 at Muenich-Riem on 11.09.44 or 12.09.44 and many RE2002 were scrapped at Bonn in 1944.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

In the HW5 files, read german messagesby brit. intelligence, there is a lot of ref. concerning the transfert of italian planes to Germany., but few concerning the Re !

Rémi

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

From 1944 …

CX/MSS/T121/12

VL 8286

SOUTH EUROPE

Signed AMC 222 ((Treviso) to AMC Neuburg/Donau

Stamped 1130/10/3:

17 Re 2002, Works Nos. —
1250, 1236, 1255, 1233, 1252, 1181,
1235, 1221, 1143, 1232, 1229, 1237,
1179, 1166, 1134, 1126, 1118, left 1055 to 1109

CX/MSS/T257/2/121

Memorandum of 26/7, source’s copy neither addressed nor signed+

No crews are to be sent off to fetch Re 2002, as crews are already in Italy.

NOTE:

1) Source believes that this was from Fliegerzieldiv. to Geschwader Bongart.
2) For mention of 35 Re 2002 as fighter bombers by Geschwader Bongart on 10/7, see T243/10 and notes.

0517/27/7/44Z

CX/MSS/T263/7

XL 4296

From 252 (Milan-Turin-Genoa area) on 31/7 to AMC 264 F ((Lyons)):
6 Re 2002, W.Nr. 5217, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25 left from 1105 to 1108 hours.

NOTE:

Reference by Geschwader Bongart to use of Re 2002 as fighter bombers in T243/10 and collection of these a/c from Italy in T257/121.

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Enclosed some info on Re 2002 etc. No guarantee of its reliability.

Matti

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

Thank you very much Nick, Matti and Remi for the very interesting and useful information.


In the meanwhile I managed to access the National Archives and found two of the messages mentioned by Nick, but I have two doubts:
- how can I decrypt the date ? The day should be the last 2 digits before "Z" but what about the attached 011238Z/8/44 --> ??/8/44.

- in both messages (one is attached) no Werk-Nr. is actually mentioned. @Nick are they mentioned in other messages ?

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

The date and time: 01 = 1st day; 1238 = 12.38 hours; Z = Greenwich Mean Time; /8/44 = August 1944.

This is the time that the deciphered message was issued by the British, not the time the Germans sent the original.

What you have got from the National Archives comes from the DEFE 3/ series of files (“Main series of reports to Allied Commands”) which are summaries of the fuller information found in files in the HW 5/ series, which I quoted from. DEFE 3/ files have been digitised, HW 5/ files have not.

These points and many more are covered in an article on my website, “Using ULTRA for Luftwaffe Research”: http://www.ghostbombers.com/Ultra/ultra_01.html

Re: Location of Re 2002 "DV+JC" ?
 

I'd like to ask your help to identify the following LW pilots. They picked up or tested the RE2002 in Italy in late 1943 or in 1944.


Fw/Ofw:
- Lorenz
- Froeh
- Kuchler
- Mazurech
- Zumkeller
- Nolfe
- Hiltl or Hilt
- Frankrone
- Graf
- Maschtkowski
- Hopfengaertner
- Bohrmann
- Paolus
- Gazllei
- Mater
- Rang



Offz:
- Lt. Schuster
- Lt. Alt


Thank you in advance