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- - Operations in Kurland (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5310)

Operations in Kurland

In the Kurland pocket, did the fighters of JG 51 and JG 54 fly close-support (i.e., jabo) missions, or was this type of thing left to the Ju 87s and Fw 190s of SG 3?

Re: Operations in Kurland

I'm not sure about JG 51 elements that were in Kurland, but two sources indicate that JG 54 flew at least some operations against ground and maritime targets. In Todeskessel Kurland, p. 213, author Franz Kurowski states that Lt Paul Brandt, a staffelkapitaen in JG 54, destroyed three Russian T-34 tanks and 20 vehicles. In March 1945, Lt Norbert Hannig and his schwarm sunk a Soviet torpedo boat and damaged another that later sank. The source of this info is: Werner Held et al, JG 54: A Photographic History of the Gruenherzjaeger, p. 184. Regards.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Thanks, Mark. It'd be interesting to find out if JG 51 flew the same types of missions.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Re: Norbert Hannig.

For what it's worth I'm behind on my reading. I can't seem to make much progress on the books on Rall, Schnauffer and Lent, but find myself reading Norbert Hannig's book for the third time. It's Hannig's writing style and personality is what makes his book so interesting. The closest I've seen to it is Knoke's book, "I flew for the Führer". Make sure you don't miss this one.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Dumb question I suppose, but what book did Hannig write? I have always thought of Clostermann's "The Big Show" and Knoke's "I flew for the Fuehrer" as coming the closest to making me feel like I was in the cockpit, sweating right along with them.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

but what book did Hannig write?

Luftwaffe Fighter Ace
From the Eastern Front to the Defence of the Homeland

Edited and translated by John Weal

fyi, JG 51 wasn't in the Kurland-Kessel

Luftflotte 1:
Stab/SG 3
II./SG 3
III./SG 3
III./SG 4
NSGr.3
Stab/NAGr. 5
1./NAGr. 5
2./NAGr. 5
Stab/JG 54
I./JG 54
II./JG 54

Re: Operations in Kurland

I found Wotan's statement that JG 51 wasn't in Kurland interesting in light of some other sources.

The list of bases for I./JG 51 on Tony Wood's site gives Libau (also used by JG 54 in Kurland) as the Gruppe's base from 11-44 to 23.1.44 (sic). I am assuming this is a typo and it is meant to read 23.1.45. However, I also note that in Aders' and Held's book, Jagdgeschwader 51 "Moelders," p. 167, they say that I Gruppe was stationed at several different locations in West and East Prussia in November and December 1944. This would appear to be at odds with the information on Tony Wood's site. At the same time, on p. 163, Aders and Held mention that JG 51 participated in tough air battles in the Kurland area in August 1944. They also say, p.166, that the Stabstaffel of JG 51 flew ship escort missions with elements of JG 54. The timeframe appears to be September-October 1944.

Can anyone else shed light on the question of JG 51 and the defense of Kurland? Thanks in advance.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Thanks for the information, Wotan. Based on your excellent review, I have ordered a copy of the book.
Thanks again,
George

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flitzer

No, it's John Weal's mastery of the German language and his skill as a translator that make the book such a good read..!!

Re: Operations in Kurland

I stand corrected.
George

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Steinitz

I found Wotan's statement that JG 51 wasn't in Kurland interesting in light of some other sources...

I'm curious to know the answer to that, too. According to Holm's site, JG 51's III. Gruppe is listed as flying from Tilsit-Ost during August 1944, which makes two JG 51 gruppen active in the Kurland Kessel at different times.

Re: Operations in Kurland

The 'Kurland-Kessel' didn't form until 10 Oct '44. Tilsit isn't in the Kurland peninsula, it is well south almost (or was) in East Prussia. JG 51 was outside the pocket in East Prussia but flew sorties 'in defense of ports' near Libau etc....

Horst Petzschler claimed several kills near Libau including 2 Pe-2s

Here's a write-up in French:

Quote:

Sur le Front Est la pression ne se relâche pas. La JG 51 continue à affronter les armadas aériennes soviétiques venant frapper un Reich sur la défensive et qui ne peut plus guère « rendre les coups ». Le Feldwebel Petzschler va vivre les derniers mois de l’existence de la Geschwader Mölders. Il rejoint le 10 Staffel de l’Oblt. Anton Lindner le 13 février 1945 à Junkertroylhof, à l’est de Danzig. L’escadrille est équipée du dernier modèle de chez Messerchmitt, le Bf 109 G-10 ! Une fois encore la JG 51 assure une couverture pour la Kriegsmarine lors de l’évacuation de civils. Elle protège aussi les navires qui forcent le blocus soviétique. Le 27 février, Petzchler remporte sa dix-neuvième victoire (un La-5) près de Graudenz, en Pologne. S’ensuivent des combats désespérés entre la multitude d’appareils de la VVS et la poignée de chasseurs allemands. C’est tout à l’honneur de Horst Petzschler d’avoir pu revendiquer six nouvelles victoires en mars lors des attaques puissantes durant la défense des ports de la Courlande. Le 27 avril 1945, il clôture son palmarès de vingt-six victoires confirmées en abattant un Pe-2 près de Libau : « J’ai attaqué avec mon Schwarm une formation de vingt-deux bombardiers Pe-2 à une altitude de 2.000 mètres. Le brouillard matinal s’étant dissipé, nos adversaires avaient pris l’air en nombre. Ayant repéré notre approche, ceux-ci larguèrent leurs bombes avant de tourner vers l’est pour atteindre Königsberg, le sanctuaire des batteries antiaériennes. Poussant le manche en avant, j’ai très vite rejoint et attaqué le bombardier le plus lent. Le moteur du Pe-2 et le réservoir situé à bâbord ont été touchés. L’avion en feu commença à se disloquer. Des parachutes se sont déployés mais je n’ai pas compté le nombre exact – probablement deux ou trois. Une aile en moins, ma victime termina sa course dans la mer. »

Au sol la sixième et dernière offensive des soviétiques est à nouveau contenue et stoppée. Toutefois avec la mort de Hitler, le 30 avril, toute idée d’utiliser la « forteresse » de Courlande comme tremplin pour une contre-offensive de dernière heure s’évapore. La capitulation de l’Allemagne et la reddition de l’ensemble de ses forces armées est désormais une question de jours. Pour les unités de la Luftwaffe basées en Courlande, cela ne signifie plus qu’une chose : il faut s’échapper vers l’ouest. L’ordre est donné au personnel de la JG 51 de rejoindre Copenhague afin de se rendre aux Anglais. A cause de problèmes de navigation et d’un réservoir défectueux, Horst Petzschler atterrit à Bulltofta, un aérodrome suédois, situé à quarante kilomètres de sa destination finale. C’est le début des ennuis.

L’internement à Grunnebo ressemble à un camp de vacances comparé avec ce qui va suivre. Un accord passé entre le gouvernement suédois et les autorités soviétiques condamne les prisonniers Allemands ayant combattus sur le front Est à un transfert vers l’URSS, le 22 janvier 1946. Certains détenus préféreront se mutiler plutôt que d’être livrés aux Russes. Horst aura lui tout le temps d’apprendre à connaître la mentalité de ses nouveaux gardiens. Il est interné à Libau (Lettonie) puis à Mariupol (Sud de l’Ukraine). Trois ans et demi de privations au total. Les formalités accomplies, il peut rentrer en train à Berlin Ouest, le 22 septembre 1949 où il retrouve sa mère et sa sœur. Il apprend alors la mort de son père Walter, tué par les Soviétiques à la fin du conflit.

From this site: Horst Petzschler

Regards,

Re: Operations in Kurland

The Game-Map "Kurland" was created by Ian Boys & me in 2004. During that time, we and csthor researched the whole aerial battles incl. OOB there as far as possible at that time.

Everything stated by Wotan in this thread is right:
- Parts of JG51 were in the Kessel which was formed by 10.10.44. IIRX AF's were Windau and Libau, also Memel (which was not part of the Kessel, but isolated as well). www.ww2.dk is a good source for that imho.
- Tilsit is further South (East Prussia). It was on the frontline for several months and totally destroyed.

SG3 was basically grounded due to lack of fuel from Autumn 1944 on. They had enough bombs, planes & pilots, but no fuel.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogybär

The Game-Map "Kurland" was created by Ian Boys & me in 2004. During that time, we and csthor researched the whole aerial battles incl. OOB there as far as possible at that time.

Which, btw, was the original inspiration for this thread. ;)

If you don't mind, I must say that many of the OOBs as seen in the Kurland campaigns seem a bit off. I'll list a couple of inconsistencies I've found so far:

-10.(Pz)/SG 3 is depicted in one of the campaigns as flying from the Kurland region (excluding the official "Kessel" designation) from late June-November 1944, yet ww2.dk shows them as being in Kurland (Riga, IIRC) only for a short time in Sept.-October 1944. Was this a concession to give the player a longer campaign with this unit?

-the same issues above, but instead dealing with JG 51. From my research, it seems for the majority of the time period they were flying far south of the depicted game map; again, was this a concession made for gameplay?

-JG 54 aircraft (aka their 190s) are not depicted at all their operational airfields, depending on the time period. For instance, Zabeln, Cirava, and Windau are all listed as operational airfields for January 1945, yet these airfields are either completely empty of aircraft or feature only Ju 52s and Fw 200s. Is there a reason for this?

I don't want it to seem like I am bashing the work you and many others did with this map and the campaigns, as I really enjoy flying for both sides on this map. It's just that I like things to be as historically correct as possible when doing so.

Thanks!

Re: Operations in Kurland

Hi,

Here are the units based in Courland, and the dates and airfields on which they were based.

29 July 1944
N.S.Gr. 3 at Koknese
1./N.S.Gr. 12 at Riga
2./N.S.Gr. 12 at Riga

16 September 1944
10.(Pz.)/S.G. 3 at Riga-Spilve

24 September 1944
II./J.G. 54 at Riga-Spilve
10.(Pz.)/S.G. 3 at Riga-Spilve
III./S.G. 4 at Tukums

27 September 1944
I./J.G. 54 at Moscheiken
II./J.G. 54 at Frauenburg
III./S.G. 3 at Ezere & Vainoden
III./S.G. 4 at Tukums
N.S.Gr. 3 at Nemakschi
N.S.Gr. 11 at Moscheiken
N.S.Gr. 12 at Talsen & Tukums
10.(Pz.)/S.G. 3 at Ezere
1./N.A.Gr. 5 at Nemakschi & Talsen
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Tukums

3 October 1944
N.S.Gr. 11 at Moscheiken-Tirksliai
N.S.Gr. 12 at Tukums
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Tukums

8 October 1944
II./J.G. 54 at Libau-Grobin

18 October 1944
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Talsen

19 October 1944
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Okte

1 November 1944
II./J.G. 54 at Libau-Grobin

8 November 1944
1./N.A.Gr. 5 at Frauenburg

15 November 1944
N.S.Gr. 3 at Libau-North

18 November 1944
1./N.A.Gr. 5 at Libau

24 November 1944
I./J.G. 54 at Libau & Windau
II./J.G. 54 at Libau
III./S.G. 3 at Cirava & Frauenburg
1./N.S.Gr. 3 at Libau-North
Stab N.A.Gr. 5 at Frauenburg & Libau
1./N.A.Gr. 5 at Frauenburg & Libau
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Talsen
I./T.G. 1 at Windau
Fl.Verbindungsgeschwader 2 at Goldingen, Libau & Malkrogs

29 November 1944
2./F.A.Gr. 126 at Libau

12 December 1944
Stab J.G. 54 at Libau-Grobin
I./J.G. 54 at Cirava
II./J.G. 54 at Libau-Grobin
7./J.G. 54 at Libau-North
III./S.G. 3 at Cirava & Windau
Stab N.S.Gr. 3 at Libau-Grobin
1./N.S.Gr. 3 at Frauenburg
Stab N.A.Gr. 5 at Frauenburg & Libau-North
1./N.A.Gr. 5 at Frauenburg & Libau-North
2./N.A.Gr. 5 at Okte

14 December 1944
II./J.G. 54 at Libau-North

21 December 1944
II./J.G. 54 at Libau-Grobin

17 January 1945
III./S.G. 3 at Zabeln

5 February 1945
II./J.G. 54 at Cirava

15 February 1945
III./S.G. 3 at Zabeln

25 March 1945
II./J.G. 54 at Cirava

Sources
Pilot Logbooks
NA AIR 40/1965 - 1988

Cheers,
Andrew A.

"You'll never silence the voice of the voiceless" - Rage Against The Machine

Re: Operations in Kurland

Thank you, Andrew! That helps out a lot.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Steinitz

However, I also note that in Aders' and Held's book, Jagdgeschwader 51 "Moelders," p. 167, they say that I Gruppe was stationed at several different locations in West and East Prussia in November and December 1944.

Would you happen to know where I could find that book? All of my efforts to find it have so far come up empty.

Re: Operations in Kurland

It is a german book, you can get it at amazon.de.

It's pretty nice actually, but not as detailed as the modern ones from Mombeek, Prien etc.

Re: Operations in Kurland

I agree with the previous assessment of the Aders and Held volume. I also think it's better on the history of the Geschwader during the early years of the war, vice 1944-45. Still, if you're interested in JG 51, it's still probably the best single source. The book on JG 51 by Stipdonk and Meyer is great, but it's a photographic history. I'm aware of at least one biography of Moelders, by Mushroom Model Publications, but obviously its focus is on one man.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogybär

It is a german book, you can get it at amazon.de.

It's pretty nice actually, but not as detailed as the modern ones from Mombeek, Prien etc.

Unfortunately, amazon.de will not ship to the U.S. What books on JG 51 have Mombeek and Prien written?

Re: Operations in Kurland

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Unfortunately, amazon.de will not ship to the U.S.

Amazon.de certainly does ship to the US, but their 3rd party sellers (the Amazon Marketplace) don't. Because the book is out-of-print, there is only one copy available on Amazon.de and it's from a Marketplace seller.

The good news is that the book isn't very difficult to find. There are currently two copies on eBay.de -- just do a search for "chronik 51". Also, if you consult the usual book search engines, you'll find over a dozen copies available from European booksellers.

Quote:

What books on JG 51 have Mombeek and Prien written?

Actually, yogybär was simply stating that the Aders/Held title doesn't come up to the standard of the detailed and comprehensive unit histories we've come to expect from the likes of Mombeek and Prien. While neither Mombeek nor Prien have done a JG 51-specific history, Prien's excellent Jagdfliegerverbände series does contain a great deal of information about JG 51 (as it does about all Jagdwaffe units.)

A few more titles about JG 51:

"Kagero Air Miniatures #29: JG 51, part 1" by Murawski -- the first of a multi-part series on the unit, in Polish and English.
"Osprey Aviation Elite Units #22: Jagdgeschwader 51 'Mölders'" by Weal (to be published in Oct 2006)
"Kreuze im Himmel wie auf Erden: Fronterleben im Jagdgeschwader Mölders" by Günther Rübell -- Rübell was a RKT with 48 victories who served in JG 51 from late 1940 to mid 1944. His autobiography contains some details about the unit as well.

Leon Venter

Re: Operations in Kurland

Go to addall.com, and search on Aders as the author, and Geschwader as the title. You will find a number of copies at different prices and stores. Many of them will ship to the US; use air mail if you can afford it, otherwise it will take 6-8 weeks to arrive.

Frank.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Thanks, leonventer and Frank. :) I'll check those sites and titles out.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Another question, more related to my original post: on Holm's site: 10.(Pz)/ SG 3 is listed as flying from an airfield called Walmar. Try as I might, I've not been able to locate this on any map. Does anyone know where this is?

Re: Operations in Kurland

Could be Wolmar (Valmiera). North East of Riga. Valmiera Disctrict borders Estonia.

Just a guess though...

Re: Operations in Kurland

Hi,

Wolmar is indeed Valmiera, located 110 km north-east of Riga. 10.(Pz.)/S.G. 3 was not the only unit to be based there. It was also home to elements of S.G. 4.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: Operations in Kurland

Thanks again! It's really nice to have such knowledgeable folks around here that know that type of stuff. :)

Re: Operations in Kurland

During the crisis in July 1944, this AF was even used to fly in infantry (!). Parts of SG2 incl. Rudel were also there, but only short as the had to rush back to Romania when desaster struck the HG Südukraine in shape of the soviet Yassy-Kishinev-operation.

In this context I remember that in late summer 44, a Me323 was shot down by 3 Yaks over Kurland...