Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hello,

I am attempting to investigate who shot down Captain Nikolia Andriyanovich Zelenov on 29 June 1944 over Vyborg. Zelenov was a high scoring Soviet ace w/a total of 34 victories (10 shared) and a Hero of the Soviet Union along with 2 Orders of the Red Banner. During the 1944 summer offensive against Finland Zelenov was a member of 14.GIAP and was subsequently listed as killed in action on 29 June 1944. None of my Finnish sources state that a Finn made any claim against 14.GIAP on the date in question; therefore, I have concluded that Zelenov must've been a victim of a German pilot belonging to Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey. The main fighter element of the German unit were 4.Staffel and 5.Staffel of JG54. My research has revealed that a Lt. Albert Seevers of 4/JG54 claimed a Yak-9 on 29 June. Also, Lt. Gerhard Thyben claimed one Yak-9 and one Airacobra on 29 June. Was it one of these pilots that brought Zelenov down or someone else?

Any input would be most appreciated.

Mike

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

I don't have a definitive answer to your question of who shot down Nicolai Zelenov, but it caught my attention because I am interested in the career of one of the possible victors, Gerhard Thyben. As of 2003, Thyben was living in Cali, Colombia with family, but was ill from the effects of a recent stroke. I communicated in Spanish with his son, who kindly shared with me some information and pictures from his father's album. I would like to pursue the shootdown of Zelenov with you. Maybe working together, we can get an answer. It's possible I could re-contact the son (Gerhard, Jr.) If his father has recuperated from the stroke, he may have a record or memory of the June 29th shootdown as having been the aircraft of a Soviet ace. I think this is a longshot, however.

Let me cover some preliminary ground. First, are you reasonably sure Zelenov was shot down by a German aircraft, as opposed to ground fire? Is there any record of the type of aircraft Zelenov was flying on June 29, 1944. If he was shot down by a German fighter and he was flying a P-39 Airacobra, it would seem that Thyben was the victor because only he took credit for an Airacobra on that day. Thyben's other claim was a Yak-9, as was that of Albert Seevers, the other possible victor over Zelenov.

I thought that perhaps the Planquadrats of the three victories in question by Seevers (1) and Thyben (2) on the 29th might provide some clues. They are contained Tony Wood's Loss List. The Planquadrat of Seevers' Yak-9 victory is rendered as 81 352. Thyben's Airacobra claim is 91 349 and his Yak-9 claim is 21 447. The location of Vyborg, the reported location of Zelenov's demise, is: 60 degrees, 42 minutes North/028 degrees, 45 minutes East. I asked, Andreas Brekken, a Norwegian WW II airwar expert on the Luftwaffe's Planquadrat system, which of the Planquadrat locations would be closet to Vyborg. He said that 91 349 (Thyben's Airacobra claim) would be the nearest. He added, however, that the location of Seevers' Yak-9 claim is also pretty close to Vyborg, but along the nothern coast of the Bay of Finland. Finally, Brekken thought that the Planquadrat for Thyben's Yak-9 claim was incorrect and should probably read 91 447, close to a town named Turku. This, too, is relatively close to Vyborg. Both of the 91 claims took place more or less on today's main road between Vyborg and St. Petersburg, according to Brekken.

I've come up empty on sources from the German perspective that I've consulted in English and German. Since I don't read Russian, I can only consult Soviet sources in English. I've looked at Osprey books on Red Air Force aces -- the more general one on Soviet WW II aces by Hugh Morgan and the one specifically on Yakelov aces. I saw no mention of Zelenov in either. There is an Osprey volume on Airacobra aces that includes Western allies as well as Russians who flew the aircraft, but no luck on Zelenov. I am trying to get my hands on a book by D. F. Loza, Attack of the Airacobras, which deals with the P-39 in Soviet hands. Have you read it; does it contain anything about Zelenov and how he met his end?

Christer Bergstrom, the co-author of Red Star, Black Cross, has done a lot of research about dogfights involving leading aces on both sides of the Air War on the Eastern Front. Perhaps he might see this and be willing to provide some insight, if possible. Regards.

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

According to "Stalin's Eagles", Zeleonv flew with the 154th IAP which turned into the 29 GIAP (Guards) on 11-22-1943. They flew Yak-9s from late 1943 on.

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

I checked the name index of Loza's book, but Zelenov's name is not mentioned.
I don't know how thorough this index is, however.

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Zelenov never flew Aircobra. He was pilot of 154 IAP/29 GIAP which was equipped with P-40s, Yak-7s and Yak-9s. His last sortie was definitely on Yak-9...

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hi all
Turku is NOT near Vyborg, (Viipuri).
Jari

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Thank you for catching my error. I misread Andreas Brekken's message to me about the Planquadrats. What Andreas said was that the Planquadrat location of Thyben's June 29th Yak-9 claim as given in Tony Wood's Loss List (21447) would have put the shootdown close to Turku, which is considerably west of Vyborg. For that reason, Andreas thought it was incorrect and should have be 91447, putting the claim in the Vyborg vicinity.

It seems to me that the various comments provided have largely eliminated Thyben's Airacobra claim as being Zelenov. If Andreas is correct and Thyben's Yak-9 claim likely took place at 91447, it would seem more probable that he was the victor over Zelenov. Still, it appears that the location of Seevers' Yak-9 claim is close enough to Vyborg that he cannot be ruled out as having been the one who shot him down. Other views/new information are welcome.

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hello to all who responded!

I am sorry about the delay in responding back to my own thread. I have been somewhat busy as of late at my job. Anyway, I unfortunately, do not know the time of Zelenov's demise. According to "Stalin Eagles" by Seidl Zelenov "fell afoul of Luftwaffe fighters in an action near Vyborg." So ground fire I think can be ruled out as well as a Finn pilot being the victor.

Mark - An interview with Thyben's son would be amazing - especially if he had access to some of his father's logs. It is unfortunate that the man himself is apparently in failing health. I also agree that now we have apparently narrowed it down that Zelenov was flying a Yak-9 on his last sortie that Thyben is the logical choice as being the most likely victor.

Mike

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hi,

Back in 1998/1999 i corresponded with Gerd Thyben who sent me a certain amount of material about his career. He also took the time to type (by use of a type writer, not a computer) a list of all his victories.

In this list, regarding 29.06.44 he quoted the following.

29.06.44 07.02 hours Plq 81 447 Jak-9 flying an Me 109 G2 5.JG 54

This planquadrate would seem at odds with what has been discussed about the shooting down of this Yak-9. I hope this helps rather than hinders. All the best,

(The second victory on that day was 08.03 hours Plq 91 349 Airacobra)

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hello Juha and David,

Yes, I do have LeR 3 in my library and I agree that at the height of the summer offensive in '44 that the Finns just took to the skies with any Bf-109 they had without repainting them. I guess there is no 100% way of declaring who shot down Zelenov. The only option is to study the available evidence and make an educated guess.

David,
It must have been amazing to correspond with Thyben personally! With that being said, I have to say that I was surprised that Thyben said he was flying a Bf-109 on the date in question. I say that because 5/JG.54 was equipped with FW.190s at the time, not Bf.109s. The German unit stationed in Finland at that time only had like 5 or 8 Bf.109s assigned to them and they were of the G6 version, not G2, and supposedly they had left Finland the day before. So, your statement is indeed interesting. Was Thyben flying a borrowed Finnish Bf.109?

Mike

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Mike,

My apologies. You are indeed correct, i misread the table of information he gave me. Re-checked it now and he was flying an Fw 190, but doesn't state which model! Does the different Planquadrate i gave from Thyben shed anymore light on the matter. Does it put him any closer to where Zelenov was shot down? All the best and apologies for the mistake.

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Thanks to Dave Williams for citing Planquadrat 81447 from Gerhard Thyben's own victory list as the location of his Jak-9 victory of June 29, 1944. I have what appears to be the same list, except I got it more recently from Thyben's son. The list in my possession also states that Thyben's Jak-9 victory claim from 29 June 1944 occurred at 81447.

I should have checked it earlier when Planquadrat expert Andreas Brekken suggested to me that the Planquadrat for the Thyben Jak-9 victory, as cited in Tony Wood's Loss List (21447), was likely incorrect. As noted in one of my previous messages on this thread, Andreas told me that perhaps the victory had been scored at 91447 since 21447 was nowhere close to Vyborg. Armed with the new information from David Williams, I went back to Andreas Brekken to see which location was closer to Vyborg: Thyben's Jak-9 victory as recorded in his personal list at 81447 or Lt. Seevers' Jak-9 victory of the same morning at 81352 (from Tony Wood). Seevers is the only other known German who qualifies as Zelenov's victor.

Andreas once again generously shared his knowledge with me, and I am passing it on to readers of 12OCH. Below is the text of his email to me, which includes two attached maps. I hope readers will be able to open them because they are quite illustrative. As you will see, Andreas places Thyben's victory (assuming it took place at 81447) as being closer to Vyborg than Seever's claim. (This is the same conclusion Andreas reached when he speculated that Thyben's win took place at 91447). Andreas also points out (once again) that while Thyben's victory is closer to Vyborg, Seever's is still in the same general area.

My own opinion remains that if Zelenov was shot down by a German and not a Finn, then Thyben is the more likely German victor. Still,it is difficult to have a high level of confidence in this probability with the evidence at hand. If we could establish when Zelenov was shot down, it might help. On Tony Wood's list, Thyben's Jak-9 score is recorded at 0703 (0702 on Thyben's own list), while Seevers' Jak-9 went down at 0810, according to Tony Wood. As before comments and new evidence or analysis are welcome. Here is Andreas' e-mail with maps.

"Hi, Mark.

Sorry for my long absence, but I have been on vacation with no internet for about a week.

I have attached two maps, which show the CENTER point of the locations you mentioned. Please remember that the gradnetz location would be an area surrounding this center point (at the scale we are talking here, the size of the area would be about 3x4 kilometers (note the range bar showing 9 km in the maps upper corners)).

But, it looks like 26 OST 81447 would be closer to Vyborg, but that both locations would be in the same general area.

This is the center of this location:


(SEE PIC1.JPG)

And this is the center of 26 OST 81352:


(SEE PIC2.JPG)

If the fight was said to have been taking place over Vyborg, I would guess the first location would be more fitting.

Regards,
Andreas"

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

Hello!

Very interesting thread. I would like to make couple of comments.


Looking at the maps provided by Andreas it becomes clear that Thyben's claim is actually further away from Viipuri (Vyborg) than Tali. Please see the map attached below. Tali is under text 18D NE of Viipuri and Thyben’s claim west of Uuras island (left border of the map).

This map is a part cropped from address (copyright unknown, style is similar to Suomen Sota book series):
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Kartat/cwdata/44KannasTapahtumat9-20.6.html



So Thyben's claim is west of island Uuras in Vyborg Bay. Soviet 59 Army IIRC tried invasion over the bay early July 1944 (preparations and attempts earlier too). This invasion was supported by Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF). Seever’s claim is also for this area.

FinnAF pilot vääp Aaltonen made his claim over Tali during the same morning (June 29th) between 07.25-08.25 AM (Finnish time is German time + 1 hour). Tali-Ihantala was the domain of Soviet 13th Air Army (“Army” VVS) to which 29 GIAP belonged. For some reason LeR 3 –book by Keskinen et al has Aaltonen’s claim connected to 15 ORAK, KBF i.e. Baltic Fleet (should be 15 OKRAP?) Yak-9 loss. At least I am wondering what would naval reconnaissance plane do over the focus of the ground force battle. And Army fighter plane over water (and archipelago) area of planned invasion.

If you ask me it is more probable that either Thyben or Seever shot down the 15 ORAP Yak-9 and lt. Aaltonen shot down the 29 GIAP Yak-9. That is judging from the info available to me at this point of time.


Regards,
Kari

Re: Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov
 

While looking up information on Gerd Thyben this old post came up. I checked Mikhail Bykov's book on "Soviet Aces" and found Kapt. Nikolay Andrianovich Zelenov of the 14 GIAP who was killed on a Yak-9 during a flying accident on the 29 June 1944. So that can eliminate him as being shot down by Thyben.