Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hi All,
Had a closer look today through M. Holms list and found a claim, dated November 18. 1944 by German Pilot Ziesmann. He claimed to shot down a P-47 at 10:51 in French area Alsace/Vosges.
As I couldn’t find the related P-47 your help is very much appreciated. I’m searching place of crash but also pilots name and unit as well as fate of the pilot.
Thanks a lot in advance
Rolf

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hello,
The following may help ?


18th November, 1944

P47's
8th AAF
42-26831 - MACR 10332
42-28623 - MACR 10333
Salvaged
42-25517, c/l on an RAF Base in Belgium.

P47's
9th AAF
42-28911 - MACR 10506
44-20085 - MACR 10509
42-76484 - MACR 10566
42-28892 - MACR 10571
44-20084 - MACR 10572
44-20090 - MACR 10573
42-26462 - MACR 10575
44-19862 - MACR 10579
42-27308 - MACR 10865
42-29198 - MACR 10866
42-28373 - MACR 10867
Salvaged
42-29396
And
Unknown - Pilot 1Lt. D. B. Tuck - 358FG/366FS.

Details from 8th & 9th AAF Losses Vol 5.

Good luck
Alex

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

I extracted these from Didier's P-47 database, listing only coming down in France. Two of these indicate Flak, so seems there are two possibilities.

Tony

42-27308 P-47D-27-RE 405th FG 510th FS 2Z-?
MACR 10865 - 18/11/44 vers Dieuze
Pilote : James A. Pelletier - Parachuté & KIA - Combat aérien

42-29198 P-47D-28-RA 405th FG 510th FS 2Z-?
MACR 10866 - 18/11/44 vers St Avold
Pilote : Hugh R. Miller - KIA - Flak

42-28373 P-47D-26-RA 405th FG 509th FS G9-?
MACR 10867 - 18/11/44 vers le Val-de-Guéblange
Pilote : Edwin G. Goss - KIA

44-20085 P-47D-28-RE 405th FG 511th FS K4-?
MACR 10509 - 18/11/44 vers Sarreguemines
Pilote : Monroe S. Sams - POW - Flak

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hello,

Summary of the 405th FG missions on 18 November, 1944:

The 18th was a good day with the 405th flying 104 sorties; however, four aircraft, along with their pilots , were lost. During that day the 35th and 26th Infantry Divisions were supported. Over Dieuze, the 510th FS, led by Captain N. T. Nonnenmacher, were jumped by 40-50 ME-109's. In the wild melee one ME-109 was destroyed and one damaged.Lieutenants Hugh R. Miller and James Pelletier, of the 510th FS, were lost in that encounter with the Luftwaffe. Sixteen aircraft of the 509th FS, led by Captain C. L. Van Etten, attacked M/T, ammo trucks, railroad cars, and a railroad station in the area of Saargemund-Kaiserlautern. Heavy damage was inflicted upon 200 freight cars, each loaded with two half-tracks. It is estimated that approximately 50% were destroyed. Second Lieutenant Edwin Goss, 509th FS, was seen to dive into the ground, cause unknown, but he was probably hit by flak. Captain Monroe Sams bailed out because of flak damage to his aircraft ans was observed safely on the ground during the 511th FS attacks in the Saargemund-Kaiserlautern area.

See:
Thunder Monsters Over Europe A History of the 405th Fighter Group in World War II and The Christchurch Squadrons.
Nolte,Reginald G.
Yuma:Sunflower University Press,1989 (2nd Printing).
pp.59-60.

Col.

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hello Rolf

Who is Ziesmann?

Michel

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Good Question

The time of the Nonnenmacher claim is 11:55 - 12:45 hrs. The German time was on this November 18th, 1944, equal to the British time. Is it possible, that Ziesmann met French P-47's ?.

Best wishes

Horst Weber

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

I seem to recall that French ac were active on this day at this time but need to check my notes

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Here are the 9th AF P-47 losses with approximate locations, all were thought to be flak related except for Pelletier and Miller, but MACR locations are not always reliable.
44-19862 was Cole (36 FG) lost near Grevenbroich.
42-26462 was Greer (365 FG) crashed west of Eschweiler.
44-200090 was Phillips (366 FG) bailed out south of Nothberg.
44-20084 was Lund (366 FG) lost near Euskirchen.
42-28892 was Schaeffer (366 FG) lost near Grosshau.
42-76484 was Knauss (368 FG) last seen near Heistern.
42-28373 was Goss (405 FG) hit northwest of Saarunion.
42-29198 was Miller (405 FG) lost a wing near St. Avold.
42-27308 was Pelletier (405 FG) lost near Dieuze, shot down by a Me 109.
44-20085 was Sams (405 FG) lost near Bliesbruck.
42-28911 was Woods (406 FG) lost east of Metz.
Tuck was killed in a non-operational flight.
The 370 FG lost a P-38 near Andernach and the 474 FG lost two P-38's due to FW 190's near Scheidt and Bonn.

Kent

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Just to clarify on Miller (405 FG) and his loss--he was involved in the aerial fight but was killed afterwards while strafing. His plane clipped a tree and lost a wing. That leaves Pelletier as the sole 9th Air Force P-47 loss this day due to enemy aircraft.

Kent

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Ziesmann was a Pilot of 2./NAGr 13

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hi All,
thanks a lot for your great response.
Based on your answers I would like to add some more comments.

Ziesmann flew in 2./NAGr. 13. As far as I understand, they usually flew with 2planes only during their reconnaissance flights. May be it wasnt a dog fight with 20plus planes.
In addition the time given by Zismann is 10:51am.
Probably we can exclude some of the P-47 because fley in the afternoon and also because of the area.
Thanks a lot in advance
Rolf

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

All Ziesmann said is that he was on a way back from a mission with Fw Hanns Zimmermann when they carried out a high speed bounce on some P-47s, shooting one down but during which the tail of Zimmermann's ac broke off. It flipped up vertically and he just managed to bale out, his chute opening just before he landed in a marsh. He suffered 24 fractures. BTW he confirmed that his St Kap was Messner. I have nothing on the P-47 apart from possibly a French link?

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hello Rolf,

I think Chris and Horst are right.
12 P-47s of G.C.II/3 "Dauphinè" took off at 9.30 to bomb a railway track between Belfort and Altkirch. Suddenly, over the target area, two Bf.109s bounced the aircraft of adjudant-chef Le Guennec. The hydraulic line on the left wing was hit and a trail of black smoke poured from the P-47.
Despite this, the French pilot was able to return and land safely at Lyon-Bron airport.
Regards.

Marco


Source: "Pilotes Francais sur l'Alsace et l'Allemagne"

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

First of all, thanks a lot to all who replied to my questions.

Marco, thanks for the explanation and source where you found the info.
Sounds very logical to me.
Thanks again
Rolf

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

First of all, thanks a lot to all who replied to my questions.

Marco, thanks for the explanation and source where you found the info.
Sounds very logical to me.
Thanks again
Rolf

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hello Rolf,

on 18 Nov 1944 a Thunderbolt was lost near Boron, 15 km southeast of Belfort, German casuality no. ME 2419 (MACR list November 1944). Unfortunately no time of the crash, serial and unit is given. The crash location points to one of the French Thunderbolts.

Regards
Leo

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Fits perfect

Belfort was attacked by the First French Army and the forts were taken from November 14th - 20th 1944 . On November 18th, in the about 15 km southeast located Boron, a Wehrmacht unit could have easily investigated the P-47 crash, sent the results by mail to Oberursel, whose compiled
ME 2419.

On the other hand, a crashed enemy aircraft should had been visible at the location for the reporting Wehrmacht unit, since a ME-report was compiled.

Postwar, all of those Oberursel-files went to the U.S. for investigation of U.S. fates.

Probably, the postwar transcripts and catalogues for the allied losses are not so detailed as the U.S. ones, since the U.S. sent them direct to the Nations of concern. And a publication of this matter was probaly handled in this states under other circumstances as the U.S. handled it.

Horst Weber

Re: Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?
 

Hi Leo and Horst,
From Marco’s post I understand that the French pilot was hit by a Me 109 but made it back to the base.
Now we have a crash site near Boron of a P-47. This is confusing me a bit.
Seems odd me that we have 2 different planes or combats but nut sure.
Thanks again for your answers and hope we can clarify.
Rolf