Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hello all

I have a question that will seem STRANGE to some,of the Oesau "abschusse"in Spain!

What is the exact number of these?
9 (Ring/Ries) but with 2 (20/07/38 and 27/07/38) not approved?

10(David Johnston in the new book:German eagles in Spanish Skies....GREAT BOOK with pictures!"whaou" and discovery (for me) of Bf.109 A!!...credited with "abschusse".

6 (according to the list established by Georg Fleischmann (KIA on 30/04/40)....a concerned witness of the time?

The Fleischmann's list puts some doubts in doubt.

Michel

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Would be grateful for any corrections and additions:





15.7.38

I-15 ("Curtiss")
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

17.7.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
2a Esc, Grupo 26 lost Felipe Barroso Calvo KIA (exploded in mid-air, attributed to Moelders), 2 other pilots baled out WIA

18.7.38
I-16 "Rata"
Alcublas area, Spain
Nationalist forces claimed 5 or 6 I-16s and 5 I-15s this date. Actual losses were 3 I-16s and 2 I-15s. The I-16s lost include those of Vicente Yuste and pilot Belmonte (both 3a Esc and KIA) plus Andres Fierro baled out safely. I-15 losses include Felipe Alonso Tebar (Tobar?) fate not listed and Juan Diaz Labella KIA. Grigorii Sergeevich Nevgerskii also KIA this date against CR-32s and Bf109s

20.7.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
Grupo 26 and other units. From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

27.7.38
SB-2
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24

15.8.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
Tivisa
Grupo 26. Two losses this date so likely a legitimate victory. Includes CM-201 of 3a Esc, Eduardo Fernandez Prada shot down in flames (other claim by Gustav Kuell)

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hi Nick

According Georg Fleischmann

15/07/38
1 Curtis "Sagunto/Valencia

17/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

18/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

15/08/38
1 Curtis "Tivissa"

20/08/38
1 Rata "Venta de Camposines"!

15/10/38
1 Rata "Mola"

03/11/38
1 Rata "Capsanos"!

Nothing about claims of 20/07/38 and 27/07/38 (Karl Ries/Hans Ring)

Michel

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hello Michel,
Have you this recent mag: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=53330
Maybe your question is regarding this very issue, I have not yet read it and have no idea what is "real score" is, but I can have a look if you want.

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Thanks,if you can inform me about the article in ACE 10

Michel

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hello,

Comparing Oesau's claims and russian archives we'v got for 9 claims, 7 of them confirmed from german side:

2 individual kills*
5 shared kills
2 unconfirmed claims (no republican losses at all)

* for the moment, since we still do not have all italian or spanish francoist's claims.

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

15 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
17 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
18 July 1938 - Rata (I-16)
23 July 1938 - Rata (I-16) - Unconfirmed
15 August 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
20 August 1938 - Rata (I-16)
15 October 1938 - ?
3 November 1938 - "YP-36"

So 7 confirmed and one unconfirmed based on Walter Oesau's personnal diary and some Legion Condor papers.

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

That fits with the list of Fleischmann who is contemporary.

Parenthesis,for those interested,at least 40 "abschusse" were claimed with Bf.109 A (top scorer Boddem)...a discovery and a surprise for me.

Michel

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Michel,

Many thanks. Will update my database over the weekend

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hi,

only litle correction:

15/08/38
1 Curtis "Tivissa" in Catalan language in or Tivisa in Spanish language


03/11/38
1 Rata "Capsanos"!
Capçanes in Catalan language or Capsanes in Spanish language

maybe not helps but can you find the two versions...

great threat!
regards

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hello,

From Robert Jackson's Messerschmitt Bf-109 A-D series.

Aircraft Date
I-15 15.7.1938
I-15 17.7.1938
I-16 18.7.1938
I-15 20.7.1938
SB-2 27.7.1938
I-15 15.8.1938
I-16 20.8.1938
I-16 15.10.1938
I-16 3.11.1938

116 more victories in World War II, 72 Western Front, 44 Eastern Front, total 125. Killed in action

Once that written, what's the truth? For instance it could not be both I-16 and I-15 for the sole claim on the 18/07/36. What are saying original archives?

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Hi,

i can add some info, if need the sources only ask:


15.7.38
Grupo 26, *, losses were Felipe Cirujeda Esteve, 1ª esc. g-26 , i-15 by colision with i-16, Jose Redondo 1ª I-16 bail out after collision with Bf109 and Pastor I-16 collision bail out


17.7.38
Grupo 26, *, 3 I-15 lost Barroso atributed to Moelders, the other 2 pilots both bail out wounded

18.7.38
Grupo 21 or misidentification?. 5 claims of I-16 (3LC+ 2 CR.32 of as de Bastos (Ace of Clubs))+ 5 claims of I-15. Real losses were: 4(+1 forcelanded) i-16 +2 i-15
i-16 Vicente Yuste , 3ª esc. , KIA, lost in Sagunto area I-16 of ¿Hungarian Gregory S.? (Венгерский Григорий Сергеевич) also crashed in the mountains
i-16 Belmonte, 3ª esc., KIA
i-16 Andres Fierro , bail out ,
I-16 Gritsevets forcelanded in Utiel airfield by CR. 32s
i-15 Felipe Alonso Tobar MIA
i-15 Juan Diaz Labella, KIA
i-16 Grigorii Sergeevich Vengerskii KIA in battle with CR.32s and Bf109s on 18 july 38 Sagunto-Valencia area

20.7.38
Grupo 26, *, from 17 to 23 of july 9 I-16s lost and 7 I-15s


27.7.38
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24



15.8.38
Grupo 26. Two losses this date so likely a legitimate victory (one of these CM-201 de Eduardo Fernández Prada 3ª escuadrilla shot down in flames) and one Chato (I-15) other prob was I-16 Mex pilot Sgt. Jaime Sirio, Sirio Martin Gonzalez or Jose Sirio martin but some sources says he died in combat 22 of july: 17 I-15 y 10 I-16 fight in Viver, a great group of fiats... Republicans lost two chatos and one I-16 only with Spanish pilots. Both pilots of the chatos bail out and the pilot of the I-16 was MIA...

20.8.38
Grupo 21, 4ª esc Moscas


15.10.38
3a, 4a, 5a and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, 3 losses (all pilots escaped by parachute).


3.11.38
3a Esc, 4a Esc, 5a Esc and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, at least 12 losses of I-16 this month for more than 22 claims http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/vi...hp?f=7&t=13111

part of the info by Nick Hector and other sources...

regards

Re: Oesau's victories in Spain
 

Many Souffan has Oesau's Legion Condor diary and has the most accurate list (well, straight from Oesau's pen, that is, so take that where ya wanna). I suggest contacting him for it.