RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hello again!
1. 218 th SQDN Fairey Battle I P-2326 HA:
Pilot (Flying Off.): CREWS C.A.R.,Jennings Cedric M. (Sgt Obs) 580427,20 years old and Evans T.S. (Sgt).
Was this P-2326 HA or 2236 ???

2. Who was the pilot from 2nd SQDN Lylander 2 ?
(landed during a bombing raid of 10 Heinkel 111)

3. Who can give the missing items?:
- 17 Sqdn Hurricane MkI-N-2454 YB: Pilot unknown (Of 87 Sqdn,mil.Nr.?, Age?
- 66 Sqdn Spitfire I N-3027 LZ: Pilot (Fl.Off.):Brown: mil.nr.? Age?
- 87th Sqdn Hurricane Mk 1L-1979 LK: pilot and info missing.
- 15th Sqdn Blenheim Mk IV TV L-8849 LS-S:
Fl.Off.: Douglass Norman Peter, nr.39933; Davies W.E.M.,Sgt Gnr;
Who was the 3rd crewmember ?
-59 Sqdn Blenheim Mk IV .........XD: Pil.Off.:Chamberlain Cr.J.Edinb. NZL, 40508, 20 years old. What was the wright and exact plane nr. or other info???
- same Sqdn, but Fl.Lt-pilot Hawks Peter A.: exact nr?
-13 Sqdn Westl.Lysander II L-6885:
Pilot & crew unknown : 4 of 13 Sqdn
- 54 th Sqdn Spitfire I N-3180 KL: Pilot Off.: Deere A.C.:
Is this correct? Was he the pilot?
- On May 27th 1940:
102 nd Sqdn Whitley V N-1417 DY-B: Fl.Off.-pil.:Cogman W.C.G.,39274: who were the crewmembers ?
Thanks in advance !
Fredcompa

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Cogman's Whitley was shot down by Flak near Milheeze 2300 hrs on 19 May. Plt Off L Miller, AC2 E H Bros and LAC J R Nicholson were taken prisoner, Sgt K V Thrift killed and Cogman evaded only to be missing presumed killed on 27 May 40 when SS Aboukir was torpedoed

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi Fred,

• Battle P2326 (but sometimes mentioned as P2336) of 218 Sqn, squadron code HA- but individual letter not known.
• Blenheim L8849 of 15 Sqn crew PltOff P Douglas, Sgt W. Shortland, Sgt W. Davies
• Lysander L6885 of 13 Sqn crew P/O A.C. OLLERENSHAW and LAC C.F. LUCAS, killed near Leuven on May 15
• Spitfire N3027 of 66 Sqn took part in a big fight with Defiants of 264 Sqn, Ju87s of 12(st)/LG1 and Bf109's of 5./JG26 on May 13 over the Biesbosch area in Holland. On its way back it made an emergency landing at Knokke and was damaged. F/O G.A. Brown, RAF 39851

Regards,

Pieter

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Thank you, Chris and Pieter!
I forwarded your information already to Frans. He'll be satisfied.
I've got already another question from him:
on May 14th 1940, a French plane made probably a forced landing in Maastricht (hit by Flak?).
The plane was a AMIOT 354 nr. 30.
Who were the members of the crew and what happened exactly?
Thanks in advance!
Fred
ps: Pieter, you know how you can reach Frans directly I think? If not, give me a sign.

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Fred,

According to my sources it was Amiot354 No34 (not 30).
It was hit during a recon of the situation around Maastricht, but almost certainly crashed in France, because they returned to their unit already the next day.
I don't have the full crew, but on board was the commander of the Groupement de Bombardement No9, colonel Francois.

Pieter

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Thank you Pieter!!!
Fredcompa

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi,

10-5-1940
Re 87 Sqn could be Voase Jeff or Saunders. First in early am at Doncourt second in post noon.

But L1779 was an 85 Sqn a/c pilot was Lee.

L1979 was shot down on the 11th not the 10th, near Hazebrouck by 109's pilot Hemingway a/c letter either "X" or "Y" dont know if code "VY" used.

Again re N2454, this was lost on the 13th not the 10th at Hergene and abandoned upon evacuation according to Air Brits L1000-N9999.

Re Deere's a/c from his book Nine lives he recalls seeing the "Kiwi" motif being eaten up in the flames.

Alex

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi Alex,

I'm confused now.
Regarding the N2454 you refer to this one as the machine of Sqn Ldr Tomlinson, that made an emergency landing at Hingene (not Hergene) in Belgium on May 11 after fights over Dordrecht.
However, according 12 Days in May Tomlinson was flying N2547.
Who is right or which is the other plane?

Pieter

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hello Pieter,

Re I'm confused.
I know that I am, where did you see that I refered to N2454 as the a/c that S/L Tomlinson used on the 11th May ?
I quote what I said

"re N2454, this was lost on the 13th not the 10th at Hergene (Spelt this way in book)and abandoned upon evacuation according to Air Brits L1000-N9999."

No memtion of Tomlinson there.

Now, as for N2454

Air Britain series L1000 - N9999
Page 130
N2454
17
Damaged by Bf109's and Force-landed, Hergene,(Again spelt this way in book) Belgium, 13.5.40; abandoned on evacuation.

FCL vol 1
page 21
13th May 1940
17 Sqn
Hurricane I
N2454
Pilot ?
Fate ?
Damaged in combat with Me109's. Force-Landed at Hergens,(again as in book) Belgium. Abandoned.

12 Days in May
No mention of N2454

As for Sqn Ldr George C. Tomlinson

FCL vol 1
page 19
11th May 1940
17 Sqn
Hurricane I
N2547
Pilot:S/Ldr G.C.Tomlinson
Fate: Safe
Patrol. Shot down by Me109 near the Hague.
Evaded and returned to UK. See also 17th May 1940.

FCL vol 1
page 24
17th May 1940
17 Sqn
Hurricane I
P3277
Pilot:S/Ldr G.C.Tomlinson
Fate: Safe
Patrol. Force Landed SE of Brussels after combat with Ju87's; set wreck on fire. See also 11th May 1940.

12 Days in May
Page 58/59
11th May 1940
17 Squadron , led by Sqn Ldr George Tomlinson (N2547), which departed RAF Martlesham Heath at 1630.
he was able to force land safely and made his way to Amiens, from where two days later he was flown back to England.

Page 78
11th May 1940
Tomlinson claimed a Bf109.

Page 79
11th May 1940
Tomlinson in N2547 of 17 Sqn a/c damaged by Bf109 of I/JG51 and force landed at Knokke; pilot unhurt returned.

Page 193
Sqn Ldr George %Tomlinson-recently returned fropm his adventures in Holland- picked off onewhich fell burning to the ground.Another immediately manoeuvred onto his tail and in trying to out turn this he stalled and force landed P3277 about 15 miles south east of Brussels, suffering facial injuries.

Page 195
17th May 1940
Sqn Ldr Tomlinson, having successfully set fire to his damaged a/c made his way towards Allied lines and eventually reached Norrent Fontés. He was back in England within 30 hours, his second escape from the Continent in a week.

Page 197
17th May 1940
Tomlinson claimed a Ju87

Page 198
17th May 1940
1630 - P3277 -17 Sqn
Sqn Ldr G.C.Tomlinson Stalled and force landed South of Brussels in combat with Ju87's of IV(St)/LG1; pilot slightly injured, returned.

Again no mention of N2454.

RAF Victory Claims by J Foreman
page32
11th May 1940
17 Sqn Hurr FC S/L G.C.Tomlinson Bf109 destroyed N.Rotterdam 17.00 hrs.

page 45
17th May 1940
17 Sqn Hurr FC S/L G.C.Tomlinson Ju87 destroyed Brussels 17.00 hrs.

Hope that it is clear now.

Sincerely

Alex

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi Alex,

Apologies for misinterpreting your comments!
Your details on Sqn Ldr Tomlinson's landing on May 11 are all correct, except for the location which was I mentioned Hingene (at that moment occupied by the belgian escadrille 1/I/1, see e.g. Avions HS18 by Peter Taghon, p12).
So that was the N2547.

Remaining question is then where this N2454 comes from.
I don't have any sources mentioning No 17 Sqn activities over Belgium before May 17, when this squadron also started to participate in the daily channel crossing scheme of RAF squadrons (see 12 Days in May).
And of course the emergency landing of Tomlinson on May 11. So a crash in Belgium would be strange and/or new information.

My conclusion: there is at least a certain degree of mix-up of this N2454 and the landing of Tomlinson's N2457 at Hingene. There is no other report of a Hurricane landing at Hingene, and 2 of these landings happening at Hingene would be a large coincidence. Still, does not explain what happened to the N2454. Who has details?

Pieter

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hello all,

ORB 17 Sqdn states that on 11 May 40 sqdn received orders to patrol the Hague and Rotterdam. At 1500 hours 12 aircraft took off. S/L Tomlinson, F/Lt Donne, P/O Slee, P/O Hulton-Harrop and Sgt Luck failed to return. - later it was reported that S/L Tomlinson was safe. He had force landed this aircraft (badly shot) at Hengene aerodrome in Belgium. He had sustained a slight injury in the action. In the air combats 17 Sqdn claimed: 3 Me 109's and 2 He 126's. Alas I do not have any futher details on 17 sqdn relating May 40.

Best wishes
Rob

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi,

17 N2407 Hulton-Harrop "YB-N" POW
17 N2403 F/Lt.M.S.Donne near Ypres KIA
17 P2758 Sgt. J.A.A.Luck POW
17 N2547 S/Ldr G.C.Tomlinson safe/evaded

Others this day 11th May
1 L1685 F/O P.H.M.Richey safe
17 N2405 P/O G.W. Slee "YB-Y" KIA
73 P2811 P/O A. McFadden (a/c hidden in shed) f/l at Poilcourt safe
73 P2813 S/Ldr J.W.C/More a/c "H" damaged safe.
BUT Lost on the 14th with P/O V.D.M.Roe KIA Namur
79 L2068 F/L R. Edwards Baled injured
79 L2049 P/O L. Appleton f/l LeTouquet safe
85 N2388 F/L R.H.A.Lee "VY-R" safe
85 P2701 S/D Belgium, but returned. Lost 18th with F/O D.H.Allen KIA.
85 L1979 P/O. J.A.Hemmingway "VY-X" or "Y" safe
87 ????? Sgt. G.L. Nowell safe
607 P2573 P/O P.Dixon "AF-A" destroyed on ground safe
607 P2571 P/O T.D.Jay "AF-G" wounded
607 P2574 F/O R.F.Weatherill f/ld "AF-F" safe. But this was 10th.
Others lost were in a 271 Sqn Bombay L5183 Béthenville
F/O. A.C.J.Percy KIA
Sgt. W.H.Whitfield KIA
Sgt. H.J.Barnwell KIA
P/O. B.L.Duckenfield injured
P/O B.J.R.Brady injured
Sgt.D.B.Crabtree injured
Sgt.H.C.Adams injured

Alex

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hi,
re claims
From Victory Claims of WW2 vol 1 by J. Foreman
17 Sqn Hurr FC
S/L. G.C.Tomlinson Bf109 destroyed N.Rotterdam 17.00
Sgt. A. F. Pavey Bf109 destroyed N.Rotterdam 17.00
F/O. R.V.Meredith Bf109 destroyed 15m S. The Hague 17.00
F/O R.C.Whittaker Bf109 unconfirmed N.Rotterdam 17.00
F/O. J.Jeffries Hs126 destroyed Delft-Hague 17.00
Sgt. N.R.Wynn Hs126 destroyed Delft-Hague 17.00
F/L. W.A.Toyne Bf109 unconfirmed Delft-Hague 17.00

Alex

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hello Rob,

What have you of the ORB for the 13th May ?
That is when N2454 of 17 Sqn is reported as lost.Along with N3403,N2405 and N2407 .
According to FCL vol 1.
N2405 and 7 seen already to have been lost on the 11th while N3403 had a longer life and ended up as a Defiant ??
I think it is a missprint and meant to have been N2403 of F/L Donne lost on the 11th.
Alex

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

Hello Alex,

Have been working on a book relating the air combats between the German dayfighters and RAF from May 40 till Aug 42 over Holland. Below you will find the engagement between 17 Sqdn and Luftwaffe over Holland on 11 May 40:

----------------------------------------------------
The following day (11 May) twelve Hurricanes of the same unit took off for a patrol between Delft and The Hague.(1) Near Rotterdam the Hurricanes met the Me 109's of Jagdgeschwader 27 and 51. In the dogfights 17 Squadron claimed two Me 109's destroyed, two Me 109's probably destroyed and two Hs 126's destroyed. (2)


Number 17 Squadron lost four aircraft near Dordrecht as well as commanding officer Squadron Leader G.C. Tomlinson, who made a successfull crash landing near Knokke. Two British pilots lost their lives, one returned to his unit and two were made POW. The German fighter pilots who claimed near Rotterdam were:


Pilot: Unit: Claim:
Oberleutnant Heinrich Krafft 3./JG 51 2 Hurricanes (3)
Leutnant Ernst Terry Stab I./JG 51 2 Hurricanes
Unteroffizier Fritz Schreiter 3./JG 51 1 Hurricane
Oberleutnant Hans- Christian Schäger 5./JG 27 1 Hurricane (4)


One of the German casualties was Unteroffizier Fritz Schreiter of the 3./JG 51. He crashed near Waalhaven. Schreiter was wounded and could return to his unit. (5) The second casualty was the 24 years old Unteroffizier Franz Schild of the same unit. He was shot down in air combat at 2 kilometres west of Zwijndrecht. (6) Besides the Luftwaffe also lost two He 126 in Nieuwe Tonge and Piershil.


(1) NA: AIR 27/234 Operational Record Book 17 Squadron; AIR 22/63 Daily secret bulletin of air operations no. 172 - 11 May 1940; AIR 25/219 Operational Record Book No. 12 Group
(2) NA: AIR 25/219 Operational Record Book No. 12 Group. According to AIR 27/234 Operational Record Book 17 Squadron: “Three Me 109 casualties are conclusively claimed and two Henschel 126 are also conclusively claimed as casualties.” In a brief history of No. 17 Squadron”:”...the squadron destroyed 3 Me 109s and 2 He 126s, but 5 pilots (including S/Ldr Tomlinson, the C.O.) failed to return.” ; AIR 16/960 Claims and Casualties Fighter Command: “2 Hs.126, 1 Me.109 cert; 4 Me.109 inconclusive.”
(3) Prien c.s., Teil 3, 274.
(4) Prien en Rodeike (II./JG 27), 26-27; Ring en Girbig, 24; Prien c.s., Teil 3, 258. Oberleutnant Schäfer was Staffelkapitän of 5./JG 27.
(5) Prien c.s., Teil 3, 274.
(6) Hans Onderwater, En nooit was het stil, 74-76; Prien c.s., Teil 3, 274.

-------------------------------------------

ORB 17 Sqdn states:

12 May 40:
Little activity today. B flight up a section on an operational call, but no enemy aircraft sighted. After yesterdays rather hard first experinece the piltos are feeling a trifle sober. F/Lt Toyne is temporarily running the Squadron. The most immediate demand is for more aircraft.

13 May 40:
Little activity today. S/Lt Tomlinson is reported safe. etc.

Alas I do not have the details on the pilots and aircraft of 17 Sqdn.

Best wishes
Rob

Re: RAF Losses above Belgium betw.May 10 and May 28,1940.
 

All,

The Hurricanes that came down on May 11 were (see e.g. 12 Days in May)

N2547 Hingene Sqn Ldr Tomlinson, returned to UK May 13
N2403 (Numansdorp) Flt Lt Michael Donne, crashed, KIA
P2758 (Dordrecht) Sgt John Luck, baled out, PoW
N2405/Y (Gravedeel) Plt Off George Slee, crashed, KIA
N2407/N (S Dordrecht) Plt Off Cyril Hulton-Harrop, baled out, PoW

I think it is pretty clear now that the presumed claims for 17 Sqn losses on May 13 are all related to the what happened on May 11:
N3403 is a typo for N2403 as already suggested by Alex
N2405 and N2407 are confirmed May 11
N2454 can only be a (serious) mix-up with the N2547 of Tomlinson.
In other words: no 17 Sqn Hurricane losses on May 13 until proven differently.

Thanks to all for your inputs.

By the way; the crew of the Hs126 that crashed at Piershil was Fw Lindner (pilot) and Lt Franke (obs), both killed in the crash.
On the 2nd Henschel I only have that the crew baled out safely over german occupied territory around Waalhaven, but that would exclude Oude Tonge.

Pieter