Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Dear folks,

Marc-André was so kind to send me a link to a photographs sold via ebay some time ago. It shows the not so well known Dornier Do 335 11/15 in the woods of Oberpfaffenhofen. Although I know 3 other photographs of that plane this was new to me.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1556198373

source: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/downed-ww2-german-aircraft-snapshot-1864126285


I didn’t know that website so I continued the search and also found this one.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1556198373

source:https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...3Q1tNdianKoh7o


Did someone safe these images from the original Ebay auctions? They are very small at worthpoint.


The top photograph also shows the 11/15, the bottom photograph shows 240114. When the photograph was taken, 11/15 was quite incomplete. The fuel tank was removed. Spinners, propellers and the rear engine were missing. It looks like that this one never flew. Do 335 12/16 also found at Oberpfaffenhofen had nearly the same conditions.


The conclusion is that the W.Nr. listings and the associated double tailnumbers that were published in the past can’t be correct!


These listings say that Do 335 M15 was 240311 (tail number 11/15), and Do 335 M16 was 240312 (tail number 12/16), but Do 335 M15 was first flown in autumn 1944 and Do 335 M16 was tested at Diepensee in February 1945. Why should flyable planes end in such conditions? Why should they be unpainted? As I have written above, I think the W.Nr. listings were wrong. An original document also clearly proves that M16 was W.Nr. 230016.

BTW: Does anybody have an idea who has first published the W.Nr. block starting with 240311? I couldn’t find any original document with such a W.Nr. block.


Here the reason why I ask these questions.


Some of you already know that I have contributed the Dornier Do 335 colour profiles for Classic publication in 2006 and 2017. 2018 I also have made a 3-side view of Do 335 M14 for Roberth Forsyth's Osprey title.


Although many books about that plane were published in the past years, I decided in 2017 to start my own book project about the Do 335 because of following reasons:


I wanted to show all known planes as profile, but in „my“ books wasn't the space for that wish.


I wanted to see some errors from the past corrected. (for example that the Dornier Do 335 W.Nr. 240113 was a double seater and not a single seater as written in the past. I have already started a thread about that some time ago: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=50578 BTW: next to the mentioned photograph in that thread I have an additional flightbook proof that Do 335 W.Nr. 240113 was a double seater)


And some gaps in history of that airplane should get stuffed, like the German tail markings of the Do 335 A-1, that later became AM 225 and crashed at Merville or photographs of not so well known planes (like the 11/15) found at Oberpfaffenhofen and other places.


Here some facts about the planned book.


The plan is to show all known Do 335 at least with one side view profile. Some of them will get shown as 4-side views. Captured planes will get shown in different stages. The drawings will get a detailed description to show all the differences. At the moment at least 110 drawings are planned. About 1/3 of them are finished. These drawings will get supplemented with a huge number of photographs, many of them haven't been published before. Attached is a possible layout.



http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1556198373



Photographs and colour profiles will get shown in the largest size as possible. Each plane will get at least 2 pages, but most 4 to 6 pages. I hope to get it finished before mid 2021.


Without the help of many collectors around the globe, who shared their material with me, such a project wouldn’t be possible. So here again a big thank you! Although the helpfulness was enormous, there are still gaps in the history of this aircraft.


So, I ask all the forum members if they would be so kind to help me to get the gaps stuffed.


Does anybody knows the winners of the Ebay auctions from the beginning of the thread?


I would be happy if you own and share never published photographs taken by GI’s after the war. Oberpfaffenhofen is quite well documented, although there are some gaps, but also on other places like Friedrichshafen, Löwental, Manzell or Mengen Do 335 fuselages and parts were found. Most interesting would be so see photographs of the laminar wing that was found at Reutin, or the remains of Do 335 at Rechlin. A probably unattainable wish would be to get photographs of the plane found by the Russians at Oranienburg.

Best regards,
Simon

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Hello Simon,

I offer the following google-translated article as a possible lead.

https://translate.google.com/transla...35&prev=search

Another article:

https://www.flugrevue.de/klassiker/k...it-der-do-335/

Best,
Ed

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Thank you Ed for the articles. First one is new to me.

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Them xx/xx numbers as explained in Do 335 book list are fiction. All xx/xx were unfinised examples and do not tie up to any W.Nrs. nor M-Muster numbers, as they did not get any - were never finished. Trying analyse or say "this can not be" is pointless.


Ed

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

I tend to agree with Ed here

Those "slash" codes are a mystery and I can only see that two are sufficiently verified, 16/20 as WNr 240163 and 1/3 as 240165.
With no access to any original photos, I can only assume that those who have are telling the truth.

Simon
I don't think any of the WNr 240301 and up has been verified yet. Possibly some/many (most?) of the "slash" coded aircraft can be found there?

Pity the Yanks didn't do a better job checking what they had.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

No mystery to me. Undeliverd on surrender. Firm on that.

Do I read AIR FORCE on the refueller behind 1/3 ? And american GMC truck seen under (behind) too? - Note no codes!

https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/def...SI-87-3289.jpg

Ed

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

No jumping to conclusions please.

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Hi Ed and Stig,
thank you for your input. Why did the Germans paint these numbers on obviously finished tail units, if they had to be painted over again after completion of the airplanes. And why the change at this markings from something that could be a system (11/15, 12/16, 13/17 (not confirmed by a photograph), 14/18, 15/19, 16/20) to these two tail markings (18/11 and 22/31) that doesn't fit in the "logic from the others. Maybe additional material will answer some questions.



Yes Ed, the photograph of 1/3 was taken after surrender, while prepairing to get it airworthy again.

1/3 has the confirmed W.Nr. 240165. The Dataplate was found on the wing, as it was used for the restauration of W.Nr. 240102.


16/20 had following haintpainted numbers on the vertical tail 163 at the top, and 3 times 175 at the bottom. So why is 163 the right W.Nr. for that plane? Why not 175?
But how about other flaps that had written handmarks as 159, 161, 125?

Really sad that the US forces didn't made a detailed list what they have found there. I made some interesting discoveries. You will be surprised to see what was found there.

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Some material is still classified and declassification is ongoing. From War Prizes by Phil Butler (page 50).


Royal Aircraft Establishment Post VE-Day, 8th May 1945


9 Junkers Ju 248 (in US hands, to go to USSR) [Why? - Ed]
14 Dornier Do 335 (version with jet rear engine)


Page 107
AM 223 W Nr 240112 (two-seat trainer)
AM 225 W Nr unknown "It was an unpainted single-seat aircraft which had not been delivered to the Luftwaffe."


Page 156 (color photo of poor quality)
FE-1012 (not yet marked), Dornier 335-A


Page 201
HMS Reaper Numbers
35 - Dornier Do 335, W Nr240102


Page 202 tells us there was another, unidentified Do 335 on HMS Reaper.


Page 220
FE-1012/T2-1012 Dornier Do 335 A-0, W Nr 240101


Page 221
Black and white photo of poor quality of FE-1012. No markings visible.

"The pilot standing by the aircraft is Flugkapitan Hans Padell."


Page 266
Black and white photo of poor quality.
"The Dornier Do 335V-14 (French 'No.1') at Lyon, still wearing its German code 'RP+UQ'."


Page 267
No.2 Do 335V-17, W Nr 230017
"After being completed under French supervision in the Dornier facility at Mengen, and being test flown there on 2nd April, 1947, the '335 was delivered to the CEV at Bretigny on 29th May 1947."

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Says me you have no real idea - Best stay in Sci.Fi., eh?

This below text is (c) - copyright to me.

Decoded this many years ago, around year 2004 - and fuller, completely reasearched chapter will be in my books - This was never just an Do 335 issue but Industry wide practice - For example it used by Junkers factories way back from 1936, even earlier. Saying "Serie/Zelle" had this and that and be the W.Nr. is basically not correct, and this was found (stated) on one wing, but as everybody here knows one wing did not "hold" an "right" to a W.Nr. (Serial) and it may not even have ever been on that plane, possibly only planned be - or already removed from older airframe - because parts were in practice just used when available (and often planes were worked on 24 hours a day on operational airplanes) but only rear end of fuselage did "hold" W.Nr.. This was standard, because of often there were delays, and practiced by one of them rare RLM orders from 1937.

Painting this large on nose (or fin) was to aid workers put "right part" (version part) on rest of airframe. Ergo one version of "Line Number" but had much deeper roots - and played part in costs, contracting and finance papers - This was part of Commerce / Trade, Banking etc. Aircraft building was a business. The bean counters did theirs behind the schenes.

Therefore it is NOT confirmed the entire "airframe 1/3" was fitted at that W.Nr., as in all likelyhood fuselage and other wing be from other other Serie/Zelle. I have photograpic evedence many Serie/Zelle parts were used on same wing. It was a practice that enabled enough parts be made and used at as fast as possible, but also as many Luftwaffe researchers know, many things went wrong, parts were delayed, destroyed and schedules slipped because air attacks ruined organized production. Each Serie had "window" of about 3-6 months "pipeline" time, and often got mixed up on assemble, despite best of intentions.

Because all Do 335 production components were made under very bad conditions, only Factory Paperwork could tell how they were used, signed off be the (BA) or (BAL). If you dont have that, you are only guessig.

Eggert Norddahl

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Hello again!
Eggert, sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the enlightenment regarding “Serie/Zelle”. It sounds plausible for an aircraft company that builds hundreds of the same aircraft. A series would have consisted of an indefinite number of “Zellen” that later were assigned with Werknummern.

So I could imagine to see markings like “Serie 11”, “Zelle 01”, “Zelle 02”, “Zelle 03”,… (11/01, 11/02, 11/03….)
At the Do335 you will not find a single marking starting with the same number. So I think your theses that maybe fits for Junkers can’t get used in that case.

At Oberpfaffenhofen unfinished planes with five different tail markings were found.

- some with double tail markings with one-digit number, as 1/3, 2/1 and at least two more
- at least one with double tail marking with one-digit number and two-digit number (x/xx)
- some with double tail markings but with two-digit numbers, as 11/15, 12/16, …
- some with the last three digits of the Werknummer, as 119, 121, 122
- some without any tail markings, seen on single seater and double seater

Next to those planes with these markings, finished components with handwritten numbers are known, as vertical tail 114, starboard horizontal tail 125, flaps with 159 and 161, upper vertical tail 163, bottom vertical tail 175.
Most probably these handwritten numbers were the last digts of the W.Nr. and should get added to the associated planes. But it’s quite possible that these parts were used were ever they were needed.
That’s the reason I think that the numbers 163 and 175 can be found on the tail of Do 335 16/20.

Same thing with the data plate that was found on the wing of Do 335 1/3. Most probably this part fitted together with the rest of the plane, but it’s also possible that the wing was used, simply because it was available.

Without an official document, this part of the history of the Do 335 can’t get solved.

But maybe someday.

Cheers,

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Hello Simon,

Not knowing what documents or books you own makes it difficult to provide help. Are you aware of the following?

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/arc...rnierwerke.htm

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

There appears nothing new in repeated words. Speculations. I was hoping for some striking ground-breaking research. But I am dissapointed. Be my guest to shed doupt, by using word like "thesis" (its not) "enlightenment" (like funny?) or whatever. Find some (new) answer and I can discuss it. But you must not break the tradition of books now-a-days of beeing with as much as possible of recycled info. Until then have the busi-est of days. You know today is the last day of the future and only Historians can change the Past, by showing us how to look at it, in the future. -Ed

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Ed, that’s true. I repeated known facts and added a little bit more. The reason why some of the planes had one kind of markings and why other planes had other kind of markings will get explained in the book.
Why should I not use the word “theses” if I refer to your reply? The “Serie/Zelle” system, that I BTW have discussed with another historian before you have written it here, maybe fits to Junkers, but it’s your “theses” that it also was used for the Dornier Do 335. Do you have the convincing proof without any alternative interpretation? That would be a List of Batch no./fuselage no. and the respective W.Nr. If that internal list does not surface there is no striking evidence and the connex remains an Interpretation or a working hypothesis. So your “theses” is at least an “enlightenment” or better said a confirmation that it was used by Junkers and other companies. That’s useful I think – thank you for that. May I ask when your book will be ready for publication? The chapter sounds very interesting.
BTW: The background about the double tail markings also couldn’t get answered by Dornier employees that were interviewed by different historians in the past decades. About 90% of all Do 335 documents were destroyed or were lost in the chaos of 1945. The remaining documents, and the fact that nearly all of the guys who were involved building the Do 335 have passed away, makes it quite impossible to answer all questions.
Maybe, with much luck, documents will surface, and answer the such open questions.

Re: Dornier Do 335 11/15 at Oberpfaffenhofen - My book project
 

Ed, what a little ray of sunshine you are! Do you have to be so relentlessly negative about other people’s efforts — might not a little encouragement from be worth trying from time to time?