German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

The 2012 book Soldaten by Sönke Neitzel and Harald Welzer, published by Simon & Schuster, uses the transcripts from the German POW cage at Trent Park, north of London. German POWs were secretly bugged to try and draw military intelligence. However, it soon became clear they were also providing confessions of war crimes. An excerpt states:

'We once made a low-level attack near Eastbourne,' recalled a pilot called von Greim. 'When we got there, we saw a large mansion where they seemed to be having a ball or something; in any case we saw a lot of women in fancy-dress, and an orchestra. We turned round and flew towards it. The first time, we flew past, and then we approached again and machine-gunned them. It was great fun!'

Does this incident or the pilot von Greim tally to known records? Although it could be from any time between 1940-1943, it sounds like a hit and run raider, possibly SKG10?

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Lt Hubert Von Greim of 6./JG 53 formerly 11./JG 2 POW 30 Dec 42 in North Africa?

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Thanks Chris. Trying to get my head around his journey - so, flew hit and run against UK south coast, then moved to North Africa, captured, then brought back to Trent Park?

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

I don't have the book anymore but if it gives a reference for this statement (e.g. SRA followed by a number) then can find the file at TNA and it should say when your guy was shot down/captured, his unit, and when the conversation took place. Example attached from another report.

(Apologies if this is overkill for a simple bit of curiosity!)

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

I have my doubts that Hubert von Greim ever flew low level attacks against targets in England since - as far as I know - his first front line post was 11./JG2 in 1942, a special high altitude Staffel, which was amalgamated into II./JG53 in late 1942 in North Africa where he was captured on 30 December 1942 after having been shot down by Flak. There is no doubt however, that the German fighter bomber campaign against targets on the English coast in 1942/43 resulted in mostly pure and intentional terror attacks with little if any military sense.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

No record of him with 10/JG 2 or 26. More likely he flew störangriff before 11/JG 2 went to North Africa & then became 6/JG 53

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

A bit of scouting (cut and paste) online and in books:

It turns out Hubert von Greim was the only son of Robert Ritter von Greim (22 June 1892 – 24 May 1945), the German Field Marshal and First World War Flying ace. In April 1945, in the last days of World War II, Adolf Hitler appointed Greim Commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) after Hermann Göring had been dismissed for treason. After the surrender of Nazi Germany in May 1945, Greim was captured by the Allies. He committed suicide in an American-controlled prison on 24 May 1945.

"In late 1942, his only son, Hubert Greim, a fighter pilot with 11./JG 2 was listed as missing in Tunisia."

"von Greim a Bf-109 pilot with 11./JG 2 "Richthofen" was listed as missing in Tunisia. He was shot down by a Spitfire flown by a Royal Australian Air Force pilot, Flt.Lt. Robert Maxwell Brinsley, but bailed out and spent the remainder of the war in a prison camp in the United States."

"The young von Greim, of 6/JG53, had crash-landed at Tabarka after his Me109's cooling system was damaged in combat with RAF fighters on 31st December 1942. He was shot down, but bailed out and spent the remainder of the war in a prison camp in the United States.'

However, the Osprey book on Jagdgeschwader 2: 'Richthofen' solves it: in summer 1942, Hubert von Greim flew Fw190A-3 Stab JG2 from Triqueville, so it seems likely the machine-gunning incident mentioned was on a hit and run mission (presumably he was held at Trent Park before being sent to the US as a POW?) - but that leaves the mystery of where/when this incident happened 'near Eastbourne', which presumably, must have been witnessed by many?

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Nick,

The source quoted for the von Greim comment is, SRA 828, 26 October 1940, TNA, WO 208/4120.

Col.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Hi,

His name was Hubert Greim, not von Greim.

These secret recordings are sometimes a useful source, but at other times the Germans were simply boasting and telling tall tales. We came across this while researching our latest eArticle - the pilot was telling his captured colleagues a series of very unbelievable stories about his Luftwaffe career, which we could find no evidence for in German records (in contrast, his account of being shot down matched exactly with British combat reports).

According to his Flugbuch, Greim never flew any Jabo or strafing raids to England, and he served with the Geschwaderstab and 11. Staffel. Neither of those units were involved in tip-and-run operations, so it seems very likely this is a case of a pilot telling tall tales. However, as Jochen says, there were plenty of terror attacks in 1942 and 1943, so the kind of thing he described certainly did occur (as Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers Over Britain by Chris Goss details on many occasions).

Hubert Greim passed away last year, on 14 October: https://trauer.sueddeutsche.de/todes...e/hubert-greim

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Col,

I think you might have quoted the wrong reference. It should be S.R.A. 3691, dated 22 February 1943.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

And to add to what Andrew said about tall tales, later in the war there’s constant competition between the prisoners over who can dream up the biggest and best secret weapon that he’s seen. I felt that Neitzel and his psychologist co-author tended to over-analyse what sounds at times exactly like young blokes showing off.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

With respect to post # 9 - you are absolutely right, his name was Hubert Greim without the "von" in his father's name. The reason for this was that his family was not part of the nobility so that they would have had the "von" by birth. Instead father Greim was bestowed with the lowest degree of nobility - Ritter von = knight of - for his exploits as a pilot in WWI, which could not be passed on and inherited by his son, who therefore was born as just Hubert Greim.

Sorry for my mistake.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Nick, my thoughts exactly on the Neitzel book. The reports are an interesting and sometimes valuable source, but should be treated with caution.

And Jochen, definitely no need to apologize. My correction on his name in post #9 probably came across a little harsher than intended! However, I've seen the same mistake repeated on numerous occasions on the Internet, so thought I should clarify it in this thread.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Andrew

I have correctly quoted the following:

Soldaten On Fighting, Killing, and Dying The Secret World War II Transcripts of German POWs
Neitzel,Soenke & Harald Welzer
Melbourne:Scribe,2012 (P/B)
p.65 fn.115

(p.362) fn.115 - SRA 828 26 October 1940, TNA, WO 208/4120.

If that is wrong, then so am I.

Col.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Col,

Thanks for that - looks like Neitzel and Welzer got it wrong.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

It is quite possible that there are several transcripts involving the same individuals. They weren't necessarily bugged just the once. Also, I have never quite sorted out how far airmen’s transcripts are duplicated between the material in the WO 208 (War Office intelligence) and AIR 40 (Air Ministry intelligence) file series.

P.S. And talking, as I was of bragging ... Neitzel implies IIRC that he was the first to find and publish material from these transcripts. I for one beat him to it!

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Thanks Andrew.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Wasn't it an American author Michael Gannon who actually first used these records?

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Quite possibly, but I don't know his work (he writes about U-Boats, doesn't he?).

I quoted three sentences from an NSG 9 prisoner in "Ghost Bombers" so although I got in early (2001), it wasn't exactly a major exploitation of the reports.

Neitzel said in Soldaten that he and his team indexed all of these reports, which would save a lot of time if the information is publicly accessible anywhere.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

David Irving also started a book project on this theme 'Secretly Overheard' in 1988: http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Overheard/

This project never saw print for various reasons which Irving notes in his post. A reconstruction of his manuscript can be downloaded from here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Overheard/CSDIC.pdf

I am posting this purely for those who might find it helpful. It is not my intention to start a debate about Irving's credentials as a historian.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

I think we need to convene a court of inquiry to establish whether or not this merits a war crimes tribunal.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

AFAIK, the recording was done in wartime, and Allied authorities did not decide to start a war crime trial. The issue of air attack on civilian targets was sensible enough to not start such a trial, with thousands of Allied airmen prisoners for both sides, and both sides attacking civilian targets since 1940. So the risk of reprisals war too high. Even if such attacks were forbidden according to international texts between both World Wars, but these texts were just forgotten during the war.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Hi Steve

Why should David Irving's reputation as a historian be doubted? Have you not read his 'Destruction of Convoy PQ17'? IMHO the finest of the many publications dealing with that particular ill-fated convoy.

Added to which he has generously allowed me to extract information for my own work.

Cheers
Brian

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Brian, it was a long time ago and you may not recall that that particular book resulted in Irving being successfully sued for libel by Capt. Broome, the escort commander. Further, in the action that Irving initiated against Deborah Lipstadt ...

“The judge summarised his findings as follows: Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism... therefore the defence of justification succeeds...”

Hence the reservations expressed in the earlier post.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Hi Nick

Yes, I'm aware of the controversy caused by David Irving's book 'The Destruction of Convoy PQ17' and the outcome of the court case, but surely that does not make him a disreputable historian - IMHO, just the opposite.

In this day and age, a good investigative journalist would surely follow the same procedures. The outcome would probably be the same, but the said journalist wouldn't/shouldn't be criticised for conducting a thorough investigation which, IMHO, Irving did. Maybe his conclusions were muddled and after all he lost the case, but ...........

David Irving's racial and right-wing views are something totally different but I was not referring to these later controversies. However, in a democracy, isn't he entitled to his own views?

I've probably put my foot in it once again, but.............

Cheers
Brian

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

His views aren’t the issue, rather what the court found he did to further them. As far as I’m concerned, no one is entitled deliberately to misrepresent or falsify their source material and still be considered a historian.

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Slightly offtopic, but here's an interesting Twitter thread on "The idea that the Luftwaffe of WW2 was somehow not involved in the atrocities and politics of Nazi Germany is a popular one but also complete fiction."

https://twitter.com/MilAvHistory/sta...92973583159303

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

LOL, my comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek. Anyway, the 'historian' in question should be investigated a bit more thoroughly before giving any credibility to this nonsense. As an aside, I was having a martini with W\C Rod Smith, former CO of 401 RCAF, and he recounted how, during late 1944, he deliberately strafed a woman pushing a baby carriage, an incident caught on his gun camera footage. No 'court of inquiry' was convened.....

Re: German raider boasts of machine-gunning English women?
 

Why? He's made a valid case and backed it up with evidence.