"Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Good evening,

From British report BT 5797 issued on 26 2339z/2/45 citing Reference CX/MSS/T. 472/49:

"(STRONG INDICATIONS GIEBELSTADT £ GIEBELSTADT ))
ELEMENTS) KING FIVE ONE AFTERNOON TWENTYTHIRD REPORTED
ARRIVAL FROM LECHFELD £ LECHFELD OF ONE AIRCRAFT WITH
ONE FIVE DEGREES DEPRESSION OF THE OBLIQUE ARMAMENT,
AND ENQUIRED WHETHER IT WAS TO GO TO FIRST OR SECOND
GRUPPE"

Any ideas as to what "OBLIQUE ARMAMENT" this message refers to?

best regards,

Jim

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

maybe this is meant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schräge_Musik

best regards
ghost

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Here's the text of CX/MSS/T472/49 which identifies the aircraft in question:

CX/MSS/T472/49 BT 5797
Report signed Hilmer, obltn. to KABUS (((Roman) I./KG)) IT. Stamped 1745/23/2:-
Strength return of 23/2
WL port Riedel starter does not function, position otherwise unchanged. Fw. Waldhof left on 23/2. Works No. 110605 with 15 degrees depression of oblique armament. Arrived on 23/2 from Lechfeld (B% request) instructions whether the a/c is to be (C% taken) over by (((Roman) I./KG)) or given up to KADIK (((Roman) II/KG))
NOTE: 1) Seen in file marked KG 51
2) Oblt. Hilmer has signed for the remaining elements of KG 51 at Giebelstadt. (cf. e.g. T469/22). For return of 21st see T470/27.

Then there was this:

CX/MSS/T498/52 BT 8237
((1)) Source saw a document dated 17/3, addressed to Detachment KABUS (( (Roman) I/KG)) 51, Giebelstadt, Oblt. Hilmer, dated 17/3, signed Ltn. Batel.
((2)) To KABUS (( (Roman) I/KG)) 51, Hopsten from Obpfr. Plattner, stamped 2345/19/3:
Strength return of 19/3: BB, HH, LL, ML, IL, AK, LK serviceable. GK, 110620, OL and 11199(smudge) shot up by a/c armament, 110605 with oblique armament shot up by a/c armament on 19/3 and completely destroyed. A/c was for KADIK (( (Roman) II/KG)).

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Wow! Thank you so much, Nick.

If 110605 was "shot up by armament on 19/3 and completely destroyed" it is not the aircraft shot down on 22 March.

Unfortunately this leads to exposing my ignorance and asking what was KADIK II/KG?

Jim

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

One of a series of standard five-letter codes for various types of unit. For the elements of a Kampfgeschwader these were:

KABEK = KG
KABUS = I./KG; KADIK = II./KG; KADOP = III./KG; KAFAN = IV./KG
KEBAD = 1./KG; KEBUT = 2./KG; KEDAC = 3./KG KEDNI = 4./KG; KEFUO = 5./KG; KEGIA = 6./KG; KEKOD = 7./KG; KELAP = 8./KG; KELOA = 9./KG; KEMAB = 10./KG; KEMNO (or KEMMO?) = 11./KG; KENEP = 12./KG.

There are more examples here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/Ultra/ultra_07.html

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Thank you again, Nick!

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Jim, that was 111605.

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Ah! Thank you, Dan. That explains it.

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Glad to help Jim.

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

This is the first time I ever heard of a Me-262 armed with oblique armament being used by KG-51 during WWII. How many does KG-51 had of the Me-262 armed with this oblique guns? Were they ever used in action against the four-engined bombers of the Allies?

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

This is the only reference I have seen to such an armament. I know of no unit in II./KG 51 that would be testing such a device. However, under the heading of sheer speculation, if a clerk had in error written "II./KG 51" instead of "2./KG 51" then one might speculate it was destined to be used by the Erprobungsschwarm des G.d.S which was attached to 2./KG 51 in January.

Jim

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

That was what the five-letter codes (KABUS, KADIK etc.) were intended to prevent, although the Allies noticed that mistakes were still made sometimes.

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Hi Edward,

In BT 5797 in my first post the operative word is "depression", not "inclination". Think about it.

Jim

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

If memory does not fail me, there were some Rustzatze kit with MG81Z with "some 15 degrees downward" for ground-attack. Were those quotidiano guns adapted on the nose or in kits onto the wings?

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

Thank you, Adriano.

From your lead, I found that the Waffenbehalter Wb81z "watering can" was a self contained gun pod carrying up to three 7.9 mm MG 81z twin machine guns along with their ammunition trays. The "B" gun pod had an angle of depression of 15% for its guns. It was "applicable to quite anything with ETC-racks".

Re: "Oblique armament" on a KG 51 Me 262?
 

mg81 gunpod modification "gießkanne"

attached an interesting thread with many pictures:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...39gießkanne39/

regards
ghost