Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

A difficult subject but I thought it was worth mentioning. Scheduled for 2 February 2020.

https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends.../dp/1526742268

Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

It's not only a difficult subject, but also a controversial one.

Withouth the intend of generating further controversy here, this is my brief input (the proverbial 2 cents), Facebook style, related to the topic, made in connection to a newly released book: Hitler's Great Gamble: A New Look at German Strategy, Operation Barbarossa, and the Axis Defeat in World War II, by James Ellman (Stackpole Books, 20 Sept. 2019).

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

I am hoping for unbiased historical research based on primary documents. I am also hoping for no or few editorial assertions by the author that are unsupported or purely interpretive.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Ed, an unbiased approach coming from Russia is really a challenge. Exactly for the very reason outlined in the foreword of this book: "The memory of the Second World War on the Eastern Front – still referred to in modern Russia as the Great Patriotic War – is an essential element of Russian identity and history, as alive today as it was in Stalin’s time. It is represented as a defining episode, a positive historical myth that sustains the Russian national idea and unites the majority of Russian citizens."

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Yes, I know. I am Polish and have relatives living in a former Communist country. Healing begins with the truth.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

The problem with this book that it is not about history but about ideology. The previous books of it's author - Boris Sokolov - are purely publicistic in nature. It's just no more than replacing of "positive" myth with "negative" one.

As a result, as Boris Sokolov shows in this powerful and thought-provoking study, the heroic and tragic side of the war is highlighted while the dark side – the incompetent, negligent and even criminal way the war was run – is overlooked

This fragment alone shows how out of touch the author is with the subject

Judging by the previous works of this author, in my opinion it's better to avoid this book

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

From the point of art of war, there is no doubt about the incompetent way Soviets fought. E.g. the use of tactical air power was very backward.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

I'm sorry to say it but this is another cliché.

German documents even from 1941 period were repeatedly stressing how skillfully RKKA fought.

The same about use ot tactical airpower. Pleas for fighter cover from German ground troops were not uncommon even in the summer of 1941. The fact that VVS never had the same assets as had USAAF of 1944-1945 period by no way means that Soviet use of air assets was backward

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

E.g. against Finns in the summer of 1944 Soviet air power employment was very backward. It concentrated on close support when the most effective use would have been interdiction.

Soviet pilots' fighting spirit left also a lot to be desired. Even in 1944 Soviet fighter formations superior in numbers and equipment often fled from battle. A Soviet pilot shot down in late summer wondered during interrogation that Finnish pilots kept attacking even when way outnumbered and that without extra money for scoring (yes, the regime that promised to eliminate money actually paid extra for scoring etc. Hypocrites!).

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

A considerably controversial statement. Yes, it is taken as dogma by many air forces, but when applied in practice interdiction has rarely proven to be effective. The failures of successive campaigns in the Korean War illustrate this point well. The great value of interdiction (to air forces) is that at best it can cause some notable effect whilst significantly reducing the loss rate of the attacking aircraft. Otherwise the greatest effect of air power (after achieving air superiority) has been shown to be application at the point of contact to defeat the opposing forces in the field.

And there are immense numbers of books and theoretical studies arguing this very point, which likely can never be settled. However it is an alternative way of applying air power, not a backward one.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

No, it was not. The Soviets did not have in sufficient numbers aircraft suitable for deep air support at their disposal. I'm again want to highlight that at any point in the war VVS had no such assets as US Ninth Air Force. So concentration on close air support was in fact the best way to use available equipment.

It could be viewed the other way - VVS aircraft completed their mission and returned to base safely, successfully evading opposition. Is this incompetence? Or maybe this tactic was quite smart? After all, it's Finnish fighters who needed to engage, especially in the summer of 1944. And they let Soviet aircraft to escape. So what side in your example failed to accomplish the mission and was less adept in tactics?

Yes, Soviet pilots were paid for aerial victories. So what? What was incompetent, negligent and even criminal in this?

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

It's realy interesting topic, Graham. Can you advice any books or articles with compearing efficency of these two tactics in WWII? I mean CAS vs interdiction.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

1. Completing their mission by e.g. abandoning the bombers they were supposed to escort?


2. You don't see anything perverse in that an ideology based on abolishing money altogether actually resorted to capitalist-bourgeoisie methods of incentive? Weren't capitalist-bourgeoisie to be hanged by their own intestines?


3. You should compare the strength ratio between Finnish and Soviet air forces in 1944 summer. The numerical superiority of the Soviet forces was closer to 10 to 1. Perhaps the Soviet "scientific" art of war needed more than 10 to 1 superiority...

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Careful Jukka. Such incendiary remarks are... well, incendiary.


Best,
Ed

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

But you do not know what was their mission and what were their orders. Why do you think it was close escort mission? What if this was a diversionary sweep? What if by evading action they were luring Finnish fighters to chase them and away from the area to clear it for Soviet strike aircraft arriving some time behind them. What if there was another Soviet fighter formation above, which had been unnoticed by Finnish pilots and the first formation which evaded combat was a bait?


What I can not see is how all of this relates to or discloses supposed Soviet incompetence?

If the Soviets had 10:1 superiority so why not to use it? Just like modest numbers do not necessarily mean prowess and expertise, superiority in numbers and/or materiel do not mean lack of tactical or operational skills. Where is incompetence?

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

https://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/...090521-040.pdf

Also, interdiction was not unknown for VVS but with the available aircraft as Il-2 and not realy perfect educated flying personal, the CAS works better. If you know, who is the "god of war" according soviet difinition, you understand why the CAS was so important in soviet operation, especially by openings.

But if necessary, VVS also could other: one prominent sample is the Lwow-Sandomir operation, where the planned counter-atack by german 8.(??) PzD was interdicted by VVS with very negative impact for whole german strategy.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Why was the aircrew training even in 1944 so lacking? Because of the incompetence of the Soviet system.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

I would say, due deficiency of aircraft fuel... The Soviet Union has improved in the years before WW2 many of their capabilities but still suffers on many areas: chemistry, oil and fuel production, aluminium production, HE production, the list is long.

Under these condition, I don't believe, the soviet leadership and system was incompetent

By the way, the training level was also improved in compare to 42-43.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

When I saw the author is Boris Sokolov, without hesitation, I decide I will skip it

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Yeah, the author managed to make an insult to both Soviet and Germans with a single sentence

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Force ratios on the Karelian Isthmus as of June 9, 1944:

Soviet: 13th Army +Baltic Fleet approx. 1300 aircraft ready for service.

Finnish: LeR 3 (48 fighters) + LeR 4 (53 bombers) =101 aircraft.

Soviet superiority approx. 13:1. With this superiority, competent personnel competently led would have crushed the opponent in a few days. This was not achieved = incompetent personnel led by incompetents.

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Once one poet wrote: "Listen, if stars are lit it means - there is someone who needs it"
I think it had been done intentionally precisely with that aim. There are some alarming attempts in media to re-ignite mutual hostility in central-eastern Europe recently. Results of such hostility are predictable - all would-be participants will suffer, third parties will benefit and certain Yale professors will lecture the world about "bloodlands"

To smash opposing air force is only one of the missions of an air arm. And if this opposing air force is insignificant factor due to its humble strength, so the mission of its destruction is not of top priority. In other words - the Soviets had not have to fight for air superiority. It was theirs by default thanks to the implementation of one of the key prinicples of war - force concentration

Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]
 

Reigniting hostility is required in the present so that the 'enemy' is clearly identified as a threat. The Polish government recently bought an Anti-Ballistic Missile system from the US. That sort of thing goes over with the people a lot better the more they feel threatened.


Here, my only goal is to help fill in the blanks. And that includes books that may only briefly touch upon air operations so that researchers wondering why aircraft that were deployed here or there were ordered to do so.


Regards,
Ed