Consolidated flying boats
 

Dear all

I am working on a letter from Martin Villing in which he states that Horst Carganico and himself each shoot down a Russian flown flying boat each on 10th July 1941. Villing states it was a U.S Consolidated flying boat type, also that his "kill" caught-fire between the two engines, I assume this was a four-engine aircraft, or the fuselage would be what was on fire. This would be in the North with JG77. The closest type I could come-up with is a Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, but this is a Navy patrol boat, not a flying boat, also no knowledge of them being supplied to Russia.....pre-war it seems. Villing and Carganico must have recorded the correct type on their Abschussmeldung otherwise they would appear on the A.S.M mikrofilms.

Has anybody any idee what type they are likely to have claimed?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Johannes

You are aware that the Russians in the Far North operated GST Catalinas.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hello Johannes,

If the planes were 4-motors they were GST (license-built PBY-1). Can't find any loss of GST on 10.Jul.41, at least on operative report of VVS SF (Air forces of Northern Fleet) level. Maybe other participants can help, Arctic is out of my focus now.

Kind regards,
Andrey

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Catalina Fuel tanks are between engines.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/data:i...AASUVORK5CYII=
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/data:i...AASUVORK5CYII=

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Guys

Many thanks for your super prompt replies.

I certainly didn't know that the Russian's operated Catalina's, and as the Catalina's wings were mounted above the fuselage a fire between the two makes perfect sense. Actually it's very probable now that Catalina's were involved. Only other information I have is that there were three together, Carganico attacked from below them, and Villing attacked from above. Actually I had skipped a page and got the date wrong(sorry) true date was according to Villing 25th July 194, the rotte were on a mission over Murmansk, and the contact happened during their return flight, as stated Carganico attacked them from below and claimed one, the other two climbed to avoid him, and flew right before Villing, " all I had to do was shoot" he stated, also attacked the third aircraft, but didn't determine if it actually fell, however army troops reported that this too fell.

As Carganico had a problem with Villing, I guess we can assume no over-claiming as each must have witnessed the others claim. Villing implies that Carganico was bad-tempered, and Villing used the rules against him, which didn't help.

Hope the new date can produce some actual losses.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Johannes,

Can't find GST losses on 25.Jul.41 too.
The closest loss was at 05:10+ msk 24.Jul.41 during the attacks against 4 German destroyers (well-known German raid). 2 GST, 3 SB, 9 MBR-2 and 1 Pe-2 had attacked the destroyers from 05:10 in 6940N/3545E. 1 GST was damaged by Bf110 (sic!), forced landed near Zakhrebetnoye and burned out, crew was saved. 2 MBR-2 (1-motor flying boats) FTR, one of crews was saved later at sea (don't know, with their's plane or not).

Maybe date in the letter is wrong.

Kind regards,
Andrey

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi,
i found this web..maybe it helps little...

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...ly-inaccurate/

By the German surrender on May 9th, 1945, the Soviet Union had received 107 PBN-1s. Amazingly, none of the Soviet Nomads had been lost in combat, although nine had been lost due technical problems.

Maybe some producing their own under license?

The Soviet Union began purchasing Catalinas and producing their own under license even before World War II. In 1937, one year after the PBY was introduced in the U.S., the Soviet Union negotiated a contract with Consolidated Aircraft to purchase three PBY-2s (Model 28-2), the right to produce the Catalina in the Soviet Union under license, and engineering support from the American company to help set up the flying boat factory in the city of Taganrog. The three Models 28-2s that arrived in the Soviet Union the following year were the only three PBYs to be powered by Wright Cyclone R-1820-G3 engines, each of which was approximately 200 horsepower less than the usual Pratt and Whitney R-1830s that were put in the majority of Catalinas. The different engines made it easier for Soviet engineers to produce their own license-built PBYs, since the Soviet Shvetsov ASh-62 (M-62) was developed from the Shvetsov M-25, which was a license-built variant of the Wright Cyclone R-1820.

In 1938, a party of 18 American engineers from Consolidated were sent to Taganrog on the Sea of Azov to help set up the Soviet Catalina factory. However, much like the Lisunov Li-2 project, which was a license-built version of the DC-3, technical documents needed to be translated from English to Russian, and, more significantly, Consolidated Aircraft’s imperial measurements had to be converted to the Soviet Union’s metric system, a task that took several months. Nevertheless, production of the Soviet-built Catalinas began the following January, and the new aircraft were designated GST (Gidrosamolet transportnii, or seaplane transport). By October 1941, when the German military overtook Taganrog where the Soviet Catalina factory had been located, a total of 27 GSTs had been built.


Unfortunately, little is known about the operational service of the majority of GSTs. In June of 1941, 11 Soviet GSTs were in stationed Sevastopol and were in service with the 80th Reconnaissance Squadron of the Black Sea Fleet. In the immediate aftermath of Operation Barbarossa, these flying boats were engaged mostly in reconnoitering enemy installations and naval bases on the Romanian coast and the western Black Sea, where the aircraft encountered stiff opposition. In the fall of 1941, when the Germans began their Crimean campaign, the Black Sea Fleet began using the remaining GSTs for night bombing missions against Axis encampments. As the Wehrmacht began to enclose Sevastopol, the license-built Catalinas were tasked with helping to evacuate important cargo from the city. By the time the GSTs were relocated to the Caucasus after the Crimea had fallen, only five of the Fleet’s 11 Catalinas were remaining. For the next two years, Soviet flying boats would play only a negligible role in the war against Germany, due both to the fact that the decisive battles of 1942 and 1943 were land operations, and to the fact that the Soviet military’s arsenal of flying boats had been severely depleted by the German onslaught of 1941 and early 1942.

regards

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Johannes

My information implies that Villing and Carganico, although each claimed a GST on 11 JULY 1941, actually only brought down the aircraft commanded by St/Ljt Nickolay Talalkhin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew survived the crash and were captured. Villing's aircraft was then hit by AA fire and he carried out an emergency landing, and walked back to German lines.

According to my records, Villing had previously accounted for a BRM-2 flying boat on 2 JULY

I'll send you a PM.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Johannes

My information implies that Villing and Carganico, although each claimed a GST on 11 JULY 1941, actually only brought down the aircraft commanded by St/Ljt Nickolay Talalkhin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew survived the crash and were captured. Villing's aircraft was then hit by AA fire and he carried out an emergency landing, and walked back to German lines.

According to my records, Villing had previously accounted for a BRM-2 flying boat on 2 JULY

I'll send you a PM.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

The Catalina's production and foreign service is quite varied.

https://www.airvectors.net/avpby.html#m4

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Johannes

Did you receive my PM?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Mombeek say Carganico's claim at 11.7.41 was I-16.
Correct last name of downed soviet pilot is Talalikhin. Also second GST was attacked by fighter and damaged slightly. Soviet sources say there was 3 Me-109.
Correct name for fl.boat downed 2.7.41 is MBR-2, not BRM-2

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Guys

Sorry to be so long in replying, only something strange happened. I replied about having the wrong date, it was actually 25th July 1941 whilst Villing was on a reconnaissance mission with Carganico, attacks were at an altitude of about 1200 metres. Villing states that he didn't see the third(his second) go down, but soldiers on the ground did.

Strange thing, my reply didn't come up on the thread(so can't view them), or the three replies I got to it, these are still missing this morning, but later ones have come up. Thanks to you all, even the fuel tank location was very helpful, it looks almost certain these were Catalina's of some variant.

Question to Russian losses expects is, do these losses make sense? Somehow I don't think it could be over-claiming as Carganico didn't seem to like Villing at all, he used to shout abuse at him, and Villing made matters worse by standing-up to him, and playing him at his own game. This can lead us to another query, Carganico had such a rage with Villing once that he follows Villing in to land, then lifts his undercarriage immediately after landing and bellies his Bf109 ! I think perhaps this is a mistranslation, looking at the Bf109 and the way the "legs" spread surely the weight prevented this?

So Brian, no I have not seen your reply, the last I saw yesterday was about the fuel tanks, which looking at the Catalina made sense to Villing's attack as the wings were on top of the fuselage, thus I believe Villing was talking about this and not between two engines on the same wing.

Grateful to you replies, even those I havn't seen.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Where claims were made? Memoirs is very unreliable source and no matters, do Carganico like Villing or not. Chance to appearing of some civilian GST in big quantity is almost zero. Naval losses all documented. Also statement about "soldiers on the ground" is total false. I have all Heer documents and only plane they say about 25.7.41 is single "rata" (I-16). I think Villing forgot real date and say about 11.7.41.

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Johannes

Here is a copy of my PM to you

I and colleagues are working on a book Air War over the Arctic: Defence of Murmansk and the Allied Convoys 1941-42. We're hoping that it may appear next year (I do have a contract). Hence the extracts from our draft below.
As you are aware, information re 1. and 14.JG77 is scarce, and anything that you may be able offer/contribute could prove invaluable and will be accordingly acknowledged.
I would be very interested to acquire a copy of Villing's letter re his and others operations. Would you be prepared to share?
Please reply to briancullauthor@gmail.com

Cheers
Brian

2 July 1941

The Soviet response to these attacks was impressive but relatively ineffectual. Both Liinakharmi and Petsamo were targeted, the first raid comprising five MBR-2s that took-off from Gryaznaya Bay at 17:30. Three more MBR-2s followed 15 minutes later. The flight was carried out at low-level to avoid detection before the lumbering seaplanes climbed to 14,000 feet to release their loads - a paltry six 50kg bombs each aircraft - over the port at Liinakharmi. But surprise was achieved and all aircraft returned safely with only minor flak damage. However, the second flight of three was intercepted by Bf109s and promptly shot down by Oblt Horst Carganico (two) and Uffz Martin Villing. In one seaplane Ml/Ljt Mikhail Chalov and his gunner were killed, while Ljt Sergey Abramov was able to bale out but was captured. All three members of St/Lt E.I. Tishkov's crew were killed in the second aircraft, while the third machine ditched and the crew rescued.

11 July 1941

The German offensive reached its height on 11 July. Fighters from both the Northern Fleet and 14th Army were again in constant action over the front lines. At 00:30 six SBs bombed troops, artillery and transports, while I-153s patrolled overhead. Three I-16s joined in and strafed the many targets, one aircraft sustaining minor damage from machine-gunfire. By late morning I-153s arrived to continue the aerial assault, followed by six SBs and then five GSTs (Catalinas) of 118-RAP/SF added to the weight of bombs being dropped. But by now three Bf109s of 1.Staffel had arrived in the area. Oblt Carganico claimed one of the seaplanes, as did Uffz Martin Villing. Only one seaplane was actually lost, a machine flown by St/Ljt Nikolay Talalkihin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew were captured. The seaplane crashed into nearby hills. During the mission Villing’s Messerschmitt was hit by AA fire. He carried out an emergency landing, following which he was forced to make the long trek back and eventually reached safety the next morning.

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hello Brian,

Do you have 'Special Unit Album - Fighting On Every Front JG77' by Eric Mombeeck?

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Ed

No, I wasn't aware of Eric's book. Thanks.

It's quite pricey - so is there much on the activities of 1. and 14.Staffeln June-December 1941 that will be of possible interest to me?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Sorry Brian, but I do not have it.

Best,
Ed

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Brian

I assume you are aware of the extensive information on the German Russian Archive sites? Outside of that there are some DEFE 3 references that provide some details on the zerstorer claim times and locations, but not enough to fill the gaps. I have not tried reading HW5 for that period, and its a long way to get to the TNA from down under.

Cheers

Russell

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Guys

Many thanks for your replies. I assumed that Villing's dates were accurate, but it seems not, moreover I wonder of his source. Just after his first claims he mentions three more "kills" two bombers and a fighter...…...that's quite vague, yet his first on 28th June 1941 and the second on 2nd July 1941 he goes into great detail. The next date he mentions is 5th July 1941 when he is awarded the Iron Cross first class, he then states that THREE DAYS LATER.....basically he clashes with Carganico and has a flying ban. The next day(9th July 1941)Villing states that he was grounded, but Carganico was airborne when their airfield was attacked, Villing was told by his z.b.V offizier to take-off, but Villing refused as he was "only allowed to take-off with Carganico's permission" Villing doesn't mention the date 9th July 1941, but says it was the day after his grounding which he say occurred three days after 5th July 1941. Then I do not understand his next statement too well, but he states that over the next few days he was more often in airbattles with Russian fighters, "which forgave themselves quickly" Sorry I only have a computer translation into English, but I would guess he ment "they had forgiven each other" ???
I am working on correcting/ the computer translation with Bernd Barbas, and I am missing at least a page, but just before his 25th July 1941 "Consolidated" adventure the paragraph ends "burns disfigured me. After 14 days I was fit again" Then a mention of a belly-landing, flaf, 100% destroyed e.t.c.

Brian I ask permission to share the letter with you, but don't know if Bernd has it on lone.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Villing was landed with burns 11.7.41. Btw Mombeek has many wide extractions from Villing's memoirs or perhaps even letter?

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

All this happend on 29.6.41, not 2.7.41!
Also target wasn't Liinakhamari and Petsamo because there was no such place like "Petsamo". All planes attacked Liinakhamari haven, which was often (and erroneously) named "Petsamo" by both side.

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Hi Igor

Apologies! The date was 29 June and not 2 July. My draft is correct but my posting incorrect!

Thanks

Brian

Re: Consolidated flying boats
 

Guys,

the place was called Liinahamari in Finnish language and it was a harbour in Petsamo county.

Best regards,
Raimo