Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello,


Can anyone please assist with the ID of the French aircraft shown on ebay at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/3-altes-Foto...QAAOSwMyFd0~qj


I'm also a little surprised by either the code shown or my eyesight as I can't id the machine myself fromthe Golden Years civil registry. But it looks like either F-ARAR or perhaps F-ARQR.



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hi Clint - I am at a loss also - the correct reg is F-AROR

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hi Clint - F-AROR - Peyret-Mauboussin PM XI - 7 built

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Tom,


Thanks for the response. Do you know whether any of these 7 machines were impressed in1939/40? Also Tom, definitely 7 produced?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hi Clint
My mistake Only 2 of this type were built. But on reflection the image of F-AROR is different is subtle ways! The wings are clipped, cabin windows are different, there are strengthening lines along the slightly deeper fuselage - so now not 100% certain it is a Peyret-Mauboussin PM XI

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hi Tom,


Thanks for looking. This one is a bit of a challenge and no mistake!



Strange that there doesn't appear to be an online french civil registration database that covers it.



I've spent some time looking at images of interwar french aircraft and drawn a blank. If you do find anything in the future that matches the ebay photograph I'd be very grateful for a heads up.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello,


I'm not sure if this is the same photo I posted in 2019, but here in any event is a photo of mystery plane F-AROR:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/294362879741...AAAOSwAZphKhHt


It does look like quite a Peyret design,but the PM XI does look different:


https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/model/P...auboussin%20XI


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello

May be the unique de Vizcaya PV-102 ? The plane was used, probably as liaison aircraft, at Villacoublay at the end of the 30's.

https://www.aviafrance.com/image.php?im=9975

Regards

Jean Schreiber

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Jean,


Thanks for the response and the link. However, I don't think that F-AROR is the Vizcaya PV-102 either. The photo of the machine i've linked to on ebay has three horizontal lines standing proud on the fuselage (I'm sure there is a name for this feature,but I can't recall it.) Neither the PM.XI nor the PV-102 has this feature. So I'm still hoping soneone has further ideas.


With a view to finding other obscure immediate prewar french aircraft to look at, does anyone know of a complete list of FW- serials,online would be good, as this looks like a promising starting point. The Golden Age site appears to only list a few such serials.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Clint

For the French aircraft registrations, you can try https://www.aviafrance.com/recherche.php

And, for the F-AROR, we will obtain a Morane 138... Bad luck.

But... since the data has been painfully compiled about 30 years ago, they are some holes, and, if the same registration was used by several planes, only one will appear. The "paper" version of the data (at least 5 pounds...) is at our local aviation library, I will make a check next week.

The original data was for years on line at the Civilian Aviation site, but, for some obscure legal reasons, all cancelled planes have now disapeared.

On the ebay photo, the Tricolors are visible on the rudder and near the wingtips. So we have more probably a French State owned airctraft belonging to a civilian structure rather than an impressed one. And the de Vizcaya belonged to the Corps Technique (technical staff of the Air Ministry), and looks similar. That was my reasoning

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hi Jean,


Where I was coming from on the request for FW- serials can be seen here:


http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_F-24.html


As you'll note there are lots of gaps in this FW- series towards the bottom of the page.Unless I am fortunate enough to get a response here on TOCH where a reader is directly able to identify F-AROR, I was thinking of working my way through the complete FW-prototypes list if one exists.I've worked my way through the ones on the link I've provided and no luck,but the fact that Aviana 10 was initially FW-07 before becoming F-AROQ leads me to believe that a more complete list of these FW- serials might help in identifying F-AROR.My thinking is perhaps excessively linear,but might a machine originally regitered somewhere between FW-08 & FW-46 be the machine I'm looking for.


While I very much appreciate your offer to check your local library next week and a result would be great I really would feel bad putting you through too much work.So if the publication has a list of the FW- serials in excess of that shown on the site I've linked to, that would probably be all I'd need and I could then search the web for the types listed and see if one fits.Obviously if an accurate entry exists for F-AROR,that would be quicker and better!


I agree that the machine would appear to have belonged to a state run agency.Were the CT- serialled machines reregistered at any stage before the war with french civil registrations or did they exist right through to 1939-40?



Best Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

A better picture found on ebay.

https://www.heberger-image.fr/images...-Escoublac.jpg

It's a SCA CAPRN.10, but I did not manage to find informations about this plane.

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Morane-Saulnier 138 156 F-AROR 6587
Morane-Saulnier 138 F-AROS 6588


Source: http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/Historic%20F-.txt

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Stéphane,


Outstanding! What a superb photo.Thank you very much. Thanks too on behalf of Jean. He can now avoid the trip to the library.


So now that its known that the aircraft is the SCA CAPRN.10 it now remains to discover the machine's operator prior to capture by the German armed forces. Dare one hope?



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Well, the plane is totally unknown to me, and the manufacturer (SCA) belongs to the very obscure ones ! Some digging is under way, and also a call to help on the french Aeroforums


Regards



Jean

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

I have AVIANA 10 c/n01 F-AROQ ex FW-007...Same plane ?

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello,


Apparently not. There is a newspaper photo here of the Aviana 10:


https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...rplanes.31308/


It would be interesting to see a photo of the machine marked as F-AROQ at the time of seizure by the German armed forces.


Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello

Here is the story of the plane, thanks to the members of the French Aeroforums and some personal research.

The aircraft was designed by a bunch of enthusiasts of the "Centre d'Aviation Populaire de la Région Nazairienne (Saint-Nazaire)" (therefore the CAPRN), as a Salmson 9 cylinders engineered 2 seater for beginners training. The State approved the design, and paid the drawings.

But the plane had to be manufactured, and, for political reasons, locally. An adhoc company, with the adequate structure, was created, as subsidiary of the obscure "Société Coopérative Aéronautique" (Paris) (therefore the SCA with no relation with the former SCA - the Société Commerciale Aéronautique). A shop was easily found in some disused part of the naval yard, and a engineer of the nearby SNCASO plant was put as boss.

After manufacturing, the plane was tested in the full scale wind tunnel (the results are preserved), but the aircraft remainded a single prototyp.

It can be reasonably assumed that the plane flew only locally, for beginners training, at the La Baule Escoublac airfield, a few miles from Saint-Nazaire, who the photography was taken, under the wing of a Navy LeO 258 converted as land plane.

It seems also that the F-AROR registration could be belonging to registrations allocated to the French State, which leads probably to a dead end...

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Jean,


Thanks for posting the question on aeroforums and also for your own investigations. Very helpful.


I have a couple of questions due to my lack of familiarity with french civil aviation:


1.What is the register Véritas referred to by Franck Roumy?


2. With regard to your comments about the use of the machine for initial training.Does this mean you are inclined to believe that the machine was used by the military as a trainer,based on Lucien's info on the Leo 258 or do you rather believe that it was civilian operated.? I guess the tricolore might point to military?


Best Regards,


Clint



Regards,


Clint

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Clint

I will try to explain in few words. In France, everybody knows the "Registre Veritas" but when it comes to his precise definition it's another story !

the "Bureau Veritas" (a private company), like the former british Air Registration Board, maintains a list of all the aircraft in airworthy state, according to his inspections, done under delegation of the civilian aviation authorities. This list is the "Registre Veritas", and an aircraft not present on the list cannot, for example, be insured. However, since the French State, for his own planes, certifies his planes by himself, they are not present on the "Registre Veritas".

Starting in 1939, almost all civilian flying schools were "impressed" or "militarized" (usually by renaming and putting a senior NCO in charge, the instructors and mechanics remaining civilians). So we can assume that this plane was used for the initial traning of future military pilots.

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Jean

A really, really excellent research from your part.
In spite of an almost non existent French language knowledge on my part, I checked the Aeroforums site and what is bothering to me is the time line.

The wind tunnel experiments done by ONERA is listed as taken place in 1937
The formation of the company, made by Farman according to one participant, in 1938.
The mention in Aerophile issue of Feb 1938 with a very rudimentary drawing and an even more odd "photo" (in reality a drawing as well).

Somehow the resumé produced by you here, implies (well, read make me feel) this aircraft did not fly until 1939 or so. Don't ask me to guess when.... :)

As you can see this simply does not add up.
Whoever came up with the idea (design) of this aircraft must have had some official backing.
The ONERA tests must, in my opinion, have been done with a scale model (I doubt a real mock-up)
Someone "leaked" details to Aerophile but the aircraft was built much later.

The most interesting thing about this aircraft is rather why it was developed/built in the first place and what the designers hoped they would achieve.
I am not saying it was a "useless" aircraft, but I really cannot see where it could find its "raison d'être". There is nothing in the design which is obviously superior to any previous design around.

Aircraft seems quite undamaged after capture. Wonder if any photo will ever appear of it in German markings? Doubtful....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Hello Stig

First, a drawing of the plane from mid - 1937 :

https://i.ibb.co/3NX3VX5/caprn10.jpg

At this date, according to local newspapers, technical drawings were about complete, a wind tunnel model had been built, and the plane itself was "under way" (understand some wood has been cut...). So the wind tunnel tests were done with a model.

Then, why this plane ? As you say rightfully, not for technical reasons, despite the fact that qualified designers from Loire-Nieuport (SNCAO at this date) were leading the design team. The answer has to be searched on the political side.

At this date (1936-1937), the French government came from the left wing (Front Populaire), and the Air minister (Pierre Cot) had introduced the Aviation Populaire (people's aviation) with two purposes : allowing the working class to fly light planes (and not only the wealthy class), and give the opportunity to young people to train as pilots, proficient enough for advanced training later by the Armée de l'Air. Both objectives were only partially achieved, for a lot of reasons.

So, if the "proletarians" will learn how to fly, if the training plane has proletarian origins it would be perfect... And since the design team of the CAPRN 10 came from a "Aviation Populaire" group, full circle was closed.

But, in April 1938 the Front Populaire government exited, and such rethorics were not longer needed. The planes for the Aviation Populaire were purchased mainly by Salmson and Caudron (who had not the needed industrial capacity at this time) and the CAPRN 10 plane was only built in two exemplars : one to be destroyed on the static tests, and our F-AROR.

Regards

Jean

Re: Photo Captured French Aircraft ID ?
 

Thanks Jean

The drawing is the same as published in Aerophile Feb 1938

I had the Force Populaire in mind but never came up with the two reasons you give here.
Waste of both money and time, but I guess they never saw it that way.

Nothing against socialism.....as long as the brain remains connected..... :)

Cheers
Stig