Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello everyone,

There is a long debate about the claims and real victories of Eric Hartmann, the German ‘ace of aces’ in WWII. He was officially credited 352 victories by VE-Day. But in recent years more and more studies are available on soviet losses on the Eastern Front, contradicting his world record victory-list in a scale, beyond all imagination. This is NOT a judgement of his flying skills, or his credibility regarding his dogfights. I think he really hit their opponents, but as you will see, only a small fraction of them was a real loss. Here is the analysis of Hartmann’s 28 claims in the fall of 1944. In the upcoming list I listed ALL permanent soviet AC losses by date and make, according to Hartmann’s claims. (Since eg. the Yak models looked very similar in the air, so I listed all of the Yaks, not just the specific model, that he reported.) Out of his 28 claims only 7 were potential victories, the rest, 21, were overclaims. So only 25% victories vs. his claims at best! But let’s be nice: 30%, not more.

If this was Hartmann’s average result throughout his flying career, he had about 88 real victories only, out of his 352 claims. This is not far from Russian researcher, Dimitri Khazanov’s study: ‘Erich Hartmann JG 52 - 352 victories ..or 80 ?’

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/0...ies-or-80.html

If we consider the real victories only, this can remove him even from the ‘Club of 100’. But see it for yourself. During this time Hartmann fought against the 5th soviet Air Army, which was covering the ground forces of the 2nd Ukrainian front in their battle for Budapest.



305: -OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m

3 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-1B (S/N: 20150) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-9T (S/N: 2515338) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 IAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3929212) downed by Fritz Schröter (Stab.I/SG.10 - Fw 190F) at 13:42 local, 6 Yak-3 vs. 4 Bf 109 and 16 Fw 190 at 2000 m in the Nyíregyháza area. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut bailed out, POW.

306: -OVERCLAIM 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799

NO YAK loss!

307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

1 Lavochkin loss this day:

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5F (S/N: 39215336) downed by Pottyondy László szds. (Hungarian 102/2. Bf 109 Sq.) at Szolnok. Gv.Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya was wounded.

307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

1 Yak loss this day:

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 IAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3229214) at 12:19 local at 1200 m, 6 Yak vs. 4 Fw 190 in the Lajosmizse area. Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov bailed out, badly burned.


308: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m


7 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715382), Gv.Lt. Nikolai Mikhailovich Grisaev (unhurt) - take-off accident at Külső-Kiritó airfield.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N:11186), lost at Jászberény, Gv.Ml.Lt Alexandr Titovich Kotlyar POW. Between 13:55-14:50 4+4 Yaks, led by Kalchenko and Kadagidze attacked 4 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109 at 3000 m, which were attacking the road at Jászberény-S. Kalchenko downed a Bf 109, Kotlyar bailed out and got captured. Heavy fragmentation in both of his hands. After being liberated by the Allies, remained in hospital until June 18, 1945. Returned to the USSR on June 20 1945.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 42178), lost at Abony-N, 20 km, GvMl.Lt Stephanov unhurt. At 12:55 local, 8 Yaks at 3000 m were attacked by 6 Bf 109 from the sun. Hidraulics damaged, crashlanded on one wheel. AC lost, pilot returned the same day to his unit.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3529218), lost at Ócsa, Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev wounded. At 08:41 local, 6 Yak-3 over Ócsa met 13 Bf 109 at 3500 m. As a wingman of his leader, who was attacking a pair of Bf 109s got hit, bailed out, and with injured legs was sent to hospital.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 1815358), lost in Nagykáta area, Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Sergeevich Egorov, Sq. Comm. returned. At 11:54 local at 1000 m, 6 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 met a large group of 8 Fw 190, 8 Ju 87, escorted by 15 Bf 109. Egorov downed a Bf 109 and a Ju 87, but was hit, caught fire by a Fw 190 and bailed out. Landed on enemy territory, hid, then in the darkness returned to his own side.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715317), lost at Újszász-E, 5 km, Svistkov unhurt. Hit by flak in the Jászberény area, crashlanded burning at Újszász-E, 5 km Pilot returned on the next day.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 0215354). Lost near Zsámbok, Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev MIA. At 13:50 local 4 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 in the Jászberény area met 8 Bf 109. Got hit, crashlanded at Zsámbok-SW, 6 km.

312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: 14.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m

1 La-5 loss this day:

5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP La-5FN (S/N: 39213519) Ml.Lt. Sergei Alexeevich Matveev injured. At 11:20 local 4+2 La-5 escorting 6 IL-2 vs. 2 ‘Fw 190’ and flak in the Valkó - Tarnaörs area. Engine and pilot’s head at 800 m was hit, lost consciousness, then at around 100-50 m he regained consciousness and with final effort took control and belly landed on soviet controlled territory. Plane written-off. A veeery lucky guy!

14 (9 Novosibirsk-, 5 Saratov-built) Yak-losses this day:

314: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015370). Gv.Ml.Lt. Valerii Arkadevich Koptelov was unhurt. At 12:20 local, at 3000 m 4 Yaks were patrolling in the Jászberény-N area, when 2 of 6 Bf 109s attacked them in a frontal attack from below. After a 180 degree turn they started to chase the 109s. After the attack his engine started to smoke. Kortelov turned to the East towards the Tisza river and at 12 km East of Jászkisér at 800 m his engine caught fire. Pilot bailed out right away and landed safely. Returned on November 18, 1944 without his plane.

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015315). Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Stephanovich Shuvalov went missing. 10 Yaks, led by Lt.Col. Mikhailyuk were covering the soviet troops in the Jászberény - Pusztamonostor – Jászárokszállás triangle at 4000 m. Over Jászárokszállás the pair of Savchuk-Shuvalov separated from the group and Shuvalov went missing. Radio connection was good, dogfight was not reported. Fate is unknown. Perhaps Erich Hartmann caught him at 08:45?

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015329). Mutually downed by Debrődy György fhdgy. (Hungarian 101/3. Sq., 26 kill Bf 109 ace) between Jászberény-Jászárokszállás in a ‘suicidal’, frontal attack. Gv.Ml.Lt. Ismail Semenovich Rulev exploded mid-air (KIA), Debrődy’s belly was shot through, with final effort belly landed along the Hatvan-Budapest RR line, rushed to hospital, saved. 1 bullet stayed in his body, removed in the U.S.A. after the war.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 22183). Landing accident at the airfield of Külső-Kiritó-N, 600-700 m at 15:20 local, after escorting the 90 GvShAP IL-2s to Hatvan. Ml.Lt. Mihail Ivanovich Sapa was unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 06179). Lost at Hatvan-S, Capt. Petr Grigorevich Artemev was KIA. At 12:00 4 Yak and six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in Hatvan area. Battle with 4-5 Fw 190, 4 Bf 109 at Csányi. Artemev was missing.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715305). Crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós-SE, 6 km, Ml.Lt. Boris Alexandrovich Horkin was injured. While covering 92 GvShAP IL-2s in the Hatvan area at 12:00 local, at 1300 m over Csányi a Fw 190 hit him, he lost altitude, then at 200 m another 6 Fw 190 attacked him, (2 of them collided behind him during the chase and probably crashed), then he crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós with leg injury.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515332). Lost at Jászfényszaru-E, 1Lt. Anatolii Mihailovich Znamenev went missing. 4 Yaks at 12:30 local at 1200 m escorted six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in the Hatvan area when they met 6 Bf 109. Formation loosened up, his leader returned to airfield alone.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515396). Lost at Jászfényszaru-NE, Ml.Lt. Ivan Constantinovich Babanin went missing. 4 Yak-9 at 12:20 local at 1200 m vs. 16 Bf 109 in the Hatvan area.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 12152). Lost at the airfield of Tiszapüspöki.
At 13:55 local, 4 Yaks covering 8 IL-2 of 91 GvShAP, returning from the Hatvan mission. Plane broken at landing due to bad weather/turbulance.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1015328). Lost at Hatvan, pilot, Lt. Georgii Dorofeevich Yarovoy was KIA. At 10:52 local, 4 Yaks of 513 IAP (Capt. Malikov, Lt. Kovalenko, Lt. Astaskevich, Lt. Yarovoy) at 2000 m, while covering 264 ShAD IL-2s met 16 Fw 190. Downed during the 3rd attack by 4 Fw 190.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3615389). Lost at Alsódabas-NE, 6 km. Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Andreevich Ustich was injured. At 9:00 local, pair of recce. Yak-9s was checking the roads in the Hatvan-Budapest-Vác-Esztergom area. Near the city of Vác at 3500 m they met 6 Bf 109. First Ustich, then his wingman, Merzlenko claimed 1-1 Bf 109. Soon after this Ustich got minor hits into the fuselage. They headed for home, but while crossing the frontline, Ustich’s engine was hit by flak, his plane fell in the Alsódabas-NE area. Wingman Merzlenko returned home alone and landed safely. Ustich was picked up by own troops and was taken to hospital. Potential victory at 08:50.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1229217). Lost at Pécel, Budapest-E. Gv.Lt. Sergei Grigorevich Yefimenkov MIA. At 15:15 local, 8 Yak-3 at 3000 m met 6 Bf 109 and 8 Fw 190. While covering his leader, he performed a frontal attack on one of the Bf 109s and was shot down. Fate unknown.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3429214). Lost at Isaszeg, Budapest-E, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Nikolaevich Agdantsev went missing. At 13:42 local, between 2000-3500 m 8 Yaks covered their own troops and met 4 Bf 109. Agdantsev while protecting the first group of four was hit and bailed out with parachute. Downed by Gerhard Barkhorn (Stab.II/JG.52) at 13.40.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2315371). Landing accident. In a dogfight over Kóka, pneumatic/hydraulic system got damaged, at landing ran into a parking IL-2. Pilot, Gv1Lt. Grigorii Yakovlevich Bekkerman was unhurt, plane written off.

On this very intense day of November 16, 1944 over the 2nd Ukrainian Front the soviet 5th Air Army reported the following losses:

3 IL-2
2 Yak-1B
3 La-5
3 Yak-3
7 Yak-9.

(Note, this list has a typo, as the real loss was 3 Yak-1B and 2 Yak-3, not 2 Yak-1B and 3 Yak-3!)

316: 17.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m

2 A-20G Boston losses this day:

5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO (S/N: 42-53956), lost at Ócsa, downed by Hungarian Bf 109 ace, Capt. Pottyondy László (102/2. Sq) at 14.30. Lt. Norayr Sumbatovich Danielyan was injured. Recce. flight over Budapest-S. Hungarian ace, Capt. Pottyondy this time flew in pair with Hartmann as his friend! The plane was delivered through the ‘ALSIB’ (Alaska-Siberia) route.

5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP A-20G (S/N: 42-54223), lost at Kevermes-S, 1 km in a ferry flight, mech. Accident/fog. Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Yurchenko was unhurt.

317: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318: -POTENTIAL VICTORY 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 –

1 La-5 and 1 IL-2 loss this day:

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5FN (S/N: 39211746), Downed in dogfight in the Hatvan-E area, pilot Kovrigin unhurt.

5 VA, 264 ShAD, 809 ShAP IL-2m3 (S/N: 1878785), downed by flak at Gyöngyöspata. Six 809 ShAP IL-2, covered by six 513 IAP Yak-9 attacked ground targets at Gyöngyöspata. During the 2nd strike Polunin’s engine started to smoke. Plane lost altitude and belly landed at Csány-NE, 7 km. Crew of Lt. Fedor Stepanovich Polunin - Kuptsov unhurt. Repaired, then lost again, -this time permanently- on March 20, 1945 between Kocs-Dad, Hungary with the Ml.Lt. Volosyankin crew in 5 VA, 264 ShAD, 451 ShAP.


323: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327: -POTENTIAL VICTORY? 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 –

3 Yak losses this day, and only 2 in the air, during mission! Hartmann’s details are unknown, but thus 3 Yaks for sure (and in his case probably more) had to be overclaim out of his 5 claims…!!!

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 32161). Take off accident. At 08:40 local, during take off Ml.Lt. Evgenii Semenovich Titov turned to the right and his right wing touched the ground. Plane broken, pilot unhurt. Plane written off without the engine as it remained in good condition and probably was reused later. Cannot be an aerial victory!

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 29156, or 45168), Ml.lt. Yakov A. Goychenko unhurt. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 Fw 190. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the ILs. Goychenko’s radiator got hit, force landed at Kál-S, 15 km. Plane not subject to repair, pilot unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 29156, or 45168), Ml.Lt. Pavel Petrovich Kuyanov MIA/KIA. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 Fw 190. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the ILs. Kuyanov fell behind his formation and was brought down immediately. Plane fell and crashed in the target area. (Lipfert’s 158., ‘Yak-9’ victory at 10:40 at nearby Atkár! - confirmed)

328: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m

1 La-5 loss this day:

5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39212724), lost at Ercsi, Budapest-S. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovskii was MIA. At 11:55 local, recce. pair, led by Lt. Blinov vs. 6 ‘Fw 190’. Snagowskii was shot down and MIA.

330: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m

3 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 2329218). Lost at his airfield (crashlanding) after recce. mission to Baracska area. Gv.Ml. Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan was unhurt. At 14:50 local, at 1000 m 2 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 in the Baracska area met up to 20 Fw 190s, attacking the soviet first lines. While covering his leader, Kamanyan was hit. After return, during landing his engine gave up. Plane crashed, pilot unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2515361). Lost at Tiszanána. At 13:50 local, at 1500 m, 4 Yak-9 were escorting 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Csömör area. Over the target the plane was hit by flak and after return, crashlanded at Tiszanána. Plane broken, 1Lt. Vasilii Pavlovich Fedosov, Sq. commander was unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, (Omsk-built) Yak-9D (S/N: 19166063). At 13:20 they took off to protect IL-2s in the Veresegyháza area. During landing the soil was too soft and the plane nosed in. Pilot, Capt. Alexandr Kuzmich Fokin had bruises on his hands while protecting his face.

That’s all. No more soviet AC losses, - only the long Axis claims.
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Wow, Gabor.

Just... ...wow.


By the way, I hope you enjoyed the Barkhorn update in Edward's "100 club" thread.

Nick

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thanks Nick, that was great!
Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Very welcome

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I have a quick question about the claims/losses. If I've understood correctly Hartmann's claims here are related to the losses of the type of aircraft Hartmann claimed. Is it possible that there are situations where Hartmann identified the type of aircraft incorrectly and that there is a corresponding loss, but of a different type of aircraft?

I apologize if I have missed something, or if this has been addressed somewhere else. I'm just trying to understand the information presented.

On a side note I am interested in Red Air Force operations. Are there any good references in English/German on the Red Air Force? Sadly, I don't read Russian.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Gabor, I would not put too much confidence in recognition skills, so I would rather check for any single engined aircraft lost in respective areas.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

As i figure out from researching Far North air battles, in big skirmishes pilots easily mix up all types of planes. Yak's in reality may be Hurricanes, P-40 and even P-39. Il-2 was P-40 and vice versa.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Naturally,

But either a loss occurred... ....or it didn't.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Yes, this is a theoretical possibility, but in case of Hartmann, I do not think it would be true. First: in the soviet 5th Air Army there were only Yak, or La fighters in the fall of 1944. No P-40s, no Airacobras, or others. Only the radial engine Lavochkins, and the V-engine Yaks. Second: We all know that Hartmann usually opened fire from a very close range. This was his well working tactics. (And this is exactly why often he could not see what really happened to the hit/damaged opponent after his ambush.) But from that close range the Yaks and the Lavochkins were so different in size and shape, that I do not think, that an experienced veteran like Hartmann, could mix up their types. Perhaps the subtype, but not the make. Certainly, I can check the other fighter losses for the mentioned days. I just need some time. (Although I do not expect too much result from it.)

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

You could be really surprised with the scale of misidentification in air combat. I would stick to the rule that any single engined aircraft could have been the target, even friendly.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

True, but we can only calculate with things that we have proofs for. Friendly fire, 'what if's, and other uncertain things cannot be part of the equation. The exact number of Soviet fighter losses are known, they won't double just for the sake of old, preferred legends ;-)
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

You would be surprised with the numbers of friendly fire incidents in the ETO. There is a number of aircraft in, time and place, and a number of aircraft out.
I am not going to defend Hartmann, do not care about him. I just only want to pint out, that the identification could be wrong, as it often was in the ETO.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Franek certainly has a point

I am neither interested in if Hartmann got 352 or only 52, but I am interested in his phenomena as such.

As I see it for pilots to actually ID correctly an aircraft in air-to-air combat was far more based on luck than skill. Where correct ID was made, it was simply because there were very few alternatives to make mistakes with.

When the British for instance suddenly was confronted with both German and Italian aircraft, misidentification increased straight away.

For a German combat pilot trying to identify a Russian aircraft in a split second and determine if the engine was radial or inline was simply ridiculous. Preferred way was to try and catch your foe from the rear, not from the side or above, so looking at the aircraft from a nice side view or straight from above to determine wing form etc was simply not possible.

It is way too easy for us "armchair eagles" to dismiss combat reports just because the wrong aircraft type is listed.

There are even incidents where pilots reported single engine aircraft instead of twin engined and vice versa.

Is there actually anyone here who has some kind of combat experience with aircraft and actually fired live ammo while being shot at by someone else?
I certainly have not....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Yes,

I have seen a Focke Wulf Condor (airliner) misidentified as a Lancaster
Defiant mistaken for a Blehnheim
Just about every single Russian fighter claimed as a "MiG-3"
P-47s and Typhoons mistaken for each other
Yaks and LaGGs frequently interchangable
Spitfires/Hurricanes/P-40s....

Franek is definitely right. It's more than worthwhile checking.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Will do soon. Now on the road ;-)))
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hello Guys

If I may
On the subject of identification errors,of the erroneous types mentioned in the claims,here is what Rall said in an interwiew a few years ago.

"Information on types of aircraft shot down,information is UNRELIABLE.We gave any type because we were asked for one.
"According to the time,if it was a monoplane with "star engine",it was an I-16 or a La-5,without much risk of error....an inline monoplane,it was a MIG, LaGG ,or Yak,haphazard.

All is said!
Regards
michel

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Well... ...naturally.
But as I always say: either a loss occurred, or it didn't.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Just a small contribution Gabor. Your work on this forum has been immense, and I for one am very grateful for anything you turn up.

This continual reiterating of "misidentification" is just making the obvious more obvious. Frankly I disbelieve anyone could believe a Defiant was a Blenheim, or a P47 a Typhoon. (I'd be interested to know who thought a Condor airliner was a Lancaster and where this occurred, a Luftwaffe pilot obviously). It sounds more like someone claiming a kill and then being told that another type had been seen shot down...therefore claiming that it must be just a bit of misidentification. I know US fighters shot down Spitfires, Typhoons, Tempests and each other in significant amounts 1943-45, and that there were many RAF incidents like "The Battle of Barking Creek", and FLt Buck Casson shooting down WCdr Douglas Bader. I believe Hartmann evidently misidentified some of his kills, made over-enthusiastic damage claims or was awarded the kill for propaganda purposes to avoid unseemly investigations of his veracity. There is a correlation I am sure with Lothar von Richtofen claiming a Sopwith Triplane and being told he had in fact shot down Albert Ball's SE5 (he'd done neither, the triplane returned damaged and Ball apparently crashed accidentally)!

Keep up the good work Gabor. New evidence allows us to better define events, especially on the Eastern Front where details are like gold dust.

The Luftwaffe were not immune from such incidents of friendly fire either, I remember reading of a nightfighter shooting down a Do217 thinking it was a Red Air Force B-25 Mitchell. I wonder if given the propaganda demands of the Nazi regime some LW aces unintentionally counted fighters of their own side in their tallies.

regards

Keith

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Well, as long as the aircraft attacked but not downed is not named, the identification is not complete. Might be impossible, but it should be the goal.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Keith,

16.1.41/0230 and 0245: Oblt. Albert Schulz of 2./NJG 2 claimed two "Blenheims"
The known interceptions/losses in the area were Defiants:
L7002 of 54 OTU, P/O H G S Wyrill and one other safe
N1542 of 54 OTU - damaged and forced to land
Source: Simon Parry, Boiten

28.7.43/1217: Rolf Hermichen claimed a "Typhoon"
W of Rotterdam/Scheldt-Brakel (PQ IH-1 to NH-7) @ 6-7000m
This has been linked to the loss of P-47C-2-RE Thunderbolt
41-6238/VF- of 336th FS, 4th FG. Lt. Henry L Ayres Jnr. Ditched and taken POW
Source: Caldwell, Bishop and Hey

Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland had made the opposite misidentification a fortnight earlier.
15.7.43/1655
Typhoon Ib (mistaken for a "P-47 Thunderbolt")
10km WNW of Somme Estuary @ low altitude
Typhoon R8866 of 181 sqn. P/O E A Haddock POW
Source: Caldwell, Bishop and Hey

29.11.44/2349: Oblt. Herbert Koch claimed a Lancaster over the Skaggerak
It is believed this was actually D-ARHW "Friesland" of Deutsche Lufthansa. 4 crew and 6 passengers all killed
Source: Boiten

So it looks like three factors are at play:
1) After midnight all cats are black
2) The wrecks of aircraft shot down over the sea cannot be checked
3) Either POWs don't correct their captors as to the type they were flying or once victory claim paperwork was submitted, it was not necessarily corrected

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Folks,

Thank you. Special thanks to those, who pointed out the possibility of misidentification of reported claims. I checked the ‘other’ fighter losses of the 5 VA on the days of Hartmann’s claims between October 27 – December 9, 1944. After checking the details found, that Hartmann’s 306. claim: ‘Yak-7’ at 15:30 local, at 98 799 is almost a perfect match to 177 GvIAP La-5F (No.39215187, '87') lost at 15:25 in the same, Kerekegyháza-N area, being downed by a Bf 109! This brings up Hartmann’s victory list to 8 out of his 28 claims in the given time period. This is 28.6% accuracy, but still within the predicted 25-30% range. Applying this average to his 352 claims, this means about 100.7 victories, so he just can stay in the ‘Club 100’ ;-)))))

The two lists of soviet 5 VA fighter losses in this thread therefore list ALL permanent soviet fighter-losses to German AND Hungarian fighters, potential (soviet) friendly fire, flak and accident victims:


305: - STILL OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m

October 27, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39213433, '33') at 13:55 local, at 300 m, pair of recce. La-5s in the Kecskemét area. 1Lt. Sergei Fedorovich Gukov was hit by flak, belly landed at Kecskemét-NW, 8 km near a lake at Méntelek. Captured, later liberated.

306: - VICTORY! 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799 – it was La-5F (S/N: 39215187) around 15:25 local, in the same area!

October 31, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5F (S/N: 39215187, '87') Lost in the Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area, Gv.Capt. Pavel Yakovlevich Morduhovich was MIA. At 15:25 local, pair of Gv.Capt. Morduhovich - Gv.Lt. Abramov was patrolling in the Kerekegyháza-N area. At 2000 m combat with 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109. Morduhovich attacked the Fw 190s, when the Bf 109 pair got in his tail. His wingman, Gv.Lt. Abramov broke away and has not seen or heard his leader in the radio anymore.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 41210105 – metal wing!) free hunting and recce. mission in the Cegléd-Szolnok-Jászapáti area. Lost near Cegléd, Gv.Lt. Alexei Alexandrovich Kunshin was MIA. At 09:25 La-5s of 177 GvIAP were strafing a truck convoy on the road between Szolnok-Cegléd. After the attack Kunshin was missing. Most likely downed by flak, or brought down by the explosion of one of the attacked trucks.

307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

November 1, 1944:
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 08175) Lost at Lakitelek-NW, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Semenovich Andrianov, bailed out, badly wounded, POW. 8 Yaks, led by Zuev vs. 8 Bf 109 at 4500-6000 m in the Nagykőrös area. Attack on the leading pair.
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D (S/N: 18166046) – NOT A LOSS, only damaged in a dogfight, repaired on its airfield!!!

307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

November 7, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211227, '27') Lost at 15:00 local at Szarvas-SE from a group of 4 La-5, 2 IL-2 from 800 m. Sq. commander, Capt. Mihail Afanasevich Kazanovskii bailed out, his La-5FN went down in flames.

308: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m

November 13, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, 3rd Sq. (S/N: 41210201 – metal wing!) lost at Újszász in a sharp, turning dogfight with Heinz Ewald near the frontline at low, deadly altitude. Heroic soviet pilot, Gv.Lt. Boris Georgievich Kalinin (1922-1944), who alone accepted the turning duel from his flight of four La-5 with Heinz Ewald, was KIA. Burning crash seen on the swampy shore of the Tisza river. Radial engine (S/N: 8212559) recovered in September, 2007, restored, now on display in our Szolnok Aircraft Museum.

312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m

November 14, 1944:
Nothing.

314: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m

November 16, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, 1st Sq., La-5FN (S/N: 39212952, ‘52’) Crashed in a dogfight with Bf 109 fighters at Besenyszög-E, 3 km. Gv.1Lt. Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (famous fighter ace, Hero of Soviet Union) was KIA. 09:45-10:35 local, 5 (3+2) La-5, led by famous fighter ace, 2 x HSU, Gv.Capt. Kirill Alexeevich Evstigneev (3, La-5FN, ‘14’) and Gv.1Lt. Petr Romanovich Setinin (2) in the Jászberény-Pusztamonostor-Jászárokszállás area. Combat with 12 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190. Over Pusztamonostor another 5(6) Bf 109 attacked and hit Zhigulenkov, who crashed at Besenyszög-E, 3 km.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F (S/N: 39214932, '32') Lost at Nagykáta at 14:00 local. 4 La-5, covering 9 IL-2 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP in the Hatvan-Hort-Atkár-Csány area. Combat with 6 ‘Fw 190’ at Nagykáta-NE, 2-3 km at 2400 m. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Mihailovich Olnev was hit, injured, bailed out at 2000 m. On November 20, 1944 he returned to his unit without his plane. This day -according to their diary- the 188 GvSAP IL-2s in 40 missions dropped 26 FAB-100, 25 FAB-50, 56 AO-25, 1838 AO-2.5, 1084 PTAB (anti-tank) bombs, fired 89 RS-82 wing rockets, 4690 (23 mm) cannon-rounds, 7760 SKAS machine gun-rounds.

328: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m

December 5, 1944:
5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3015336, '36') At 15:05 local at 2000 m, 4 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Heréd area met 4 Bf 109. Received hit in the hydraulics system and belly-landed in the Pusztamonostor area. Plane broken, pilot, Lt. Georgii Alexandrovich Ulanov was slightly injured. The soviets gave air support to Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Fedorovich Loza’s 46 Guards Tank-Brigade, that was fighting in the Heréd-(Nagy)Kökényes area. This was the very first tank-battle, in which the new, 76 mm M4A2(76)W ’Shermans’ tasted battle and immediately suffered huge losses (eg. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Fedorovich Zhilin, Gv.Lt. Fedor Ivanovich Dankin, tank-commanders' Shermans, etc.) - in soviet service. The Emchas had not much chance, as the Germans fired from covers, and pushed them in a swampy area, where many sank, and became like 'sitting ducks':

2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080561, turret: ’♠4 7’
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080791, turret: ’♠4 5’
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3056452, turret: ’♠4 21’
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)D ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080322, turret: ’♠4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080787, turret: ’♠4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080813, turret: ’♠4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080847, turret: ’♠4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080858, turret: ’♠4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080908, turret: ’♠4 ??'

(Previously the soviet Shermans were older, 75 mm models.)


5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1615383, '83') At 10:12 local, at 1500 m, 6 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Erdőtarcsa area met 8 Bf 109. 4 Bf 109 turned agaisnt the Yaks, 4 against the ILs. Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Yerko went missing.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1529219, '15') Lost over Ercsi, Jewish Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich, commander of 151 GvIAP was KIA. At 14:00 local, 8 Yaks (4 Yak-3, 4 Yak-1B), led by Gv.Maj. Ravikovich took off from Kecskemét to cover the Danube river crossings of soviet ground forces in the Ercsi area, south of Budapest. Large groups of enemy planes tried to attack and stop the crossing: Bf 109s, Fw 190s, then (~Rudel’s 10.(Pz)/SG.2) Ju 87G-2 Stukas, covered by Bf 109s, Fw 190s. Yak-3s of Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich and Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Alexeevich Menshikov rolled over, and jumped on the first pair of the Fw 190s, then started to chase a Ju 87G-pair, downing one from each. Ravikovich went to 400-500 m, his wingman, Menshikov to 200 m and lost Ravikovich from his sight. This time they were attacking the Ju 87s. The other 6 Yaks were still busy fighting the enemy fighters South of Ercsi. It is believed, that Ravikovich was hit (either killed, or seriously wounded) in the return fire of the (~SG.2) Stukas. Total claims: 3 Fw 190, 2 Ju 87G, 1 Hs 129 (~14.(Pz)/SG.9). (Lt.Col. Borovoy, Maj. Gavrilin, Gv.Ml.Lt. Lyashin – ’Sword group’.)

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 20153) Lost near Szirák. At 11:00 local, 8 Yak-1, Yak-9, escorting 12 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Erdőtarcsa area. Over the target at 1500 m combat with 8 Bf 109. Ml.Lt. Ivan Arhipovich Guryev went missing. The IL-2s suffered no losses.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211776, '76') Downed by flak, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak was unhurt. (His next La-5FN was No.41210115 – metal wing!)

330: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m

December 9, 1944:
Nothing.

That’s all. Certainly I did not go that far to think that Hartmann could not see the difference between a twin-engine Boston, a two-seater IL-2, or a small, single engine La-5.

Conclusion: In the given time period, Hartmann had 8 potential victories out of his 28 claims, which represents about 28-29% accuracy. If this is a representative average of his flying career, Erich Hartmann had about 100 real victories during WWII.

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Cheers, Nick.

I still think a loss is being linked to a claim in the first three instances irrespective of it being brought together in a later publication. No way does a Blenheim look like a Defiant in any world I inhabit. Distance, light, weather conditions or what have you it seems more likely he was "line-shooting". If he was close enough to his victims to shoot them down then he was close enough to identify a twin-engine light bomber as distinct from a single-engine nightfighter/trainer. A Hurricane I could believe, a Master also but a Blenheim? If his eyesight is that bad should he be piloting a plane or indeed driving a car :)

Likewise a P-47 doesn't look like a P-47 from any angle so a claim of one for the other doesn't fill me with confidence. It's equally possible that in both cases at the presumed distance the claims were made (on the pilots evidence) that they were Fw190s! I know there a well-argued instances of RAF pilots claims being questioned where a Fw190 is lost but a Bf109 claimed but again I think it's making one event fit another.

The claim for a Lancaster when it's a Condor strikes me as evidence for a court-martial if true. The distinctly non-Lancaster like tail of a Condor is the size of Devon! If he got away with that then he must have been sleeping with Hermann Goering! :)

I wonder why we accept LW claims as verbatum nine times out of ten? Thrill of combat, disorientation, call it what you like, this makes claims less substantive not allowable because it's a dangerous situation requiring split-second timing. In this case in at least two instances if true the winning pilot wasn't facing any return fire, and was able to stooge around until he got his man. He could have got close enough to hit them with a hammer.

I won't argue further Nick, I have too much respect for your opinion, but we'll have to agree to differ :)

Sorry Stig, your argument that "we haven't been there so we don't know" is true but it doesn't mean any old nonsense is acceptable because the claimant is brave. I could recite many instances, so could you, where it's been proved that fighter pilots have lied. The nature of fighter pilots is to claim victories on evidence as shallow as a sparrow's hip-bath. Argue facts and accept when they don't match. Don't accept it's a Rhode Island Red if it actually looks very like a duck with a rubber glove on it's head making chicken noises...

regards

"Armchair Eagle" (Keith)

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Keith

There are plenty of documented misidentifiactions that make wonder how they happened, for example Me 110 mistaken for Liberator or Mosquito for Lancaster. This happened, and there is no point in discussing it any further. I recall seeing a gun camera photo what it looked a radial engined fighter. Fortunately there were other shots, proving beyond doubt it was a Me 109G-6. So, really no one should put too much faith with the identification.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Note to victory No. 306. At the same time (15:42, i.e. 12 minutes later) Ltn. Heinz Ewald claimed "ŁaGG-5". Isn't he more likely a candidate for La-5F S/N: 39215187?

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Para two of my reply, it should read P47 for Typhoon.

Sorry Franek, prove your Me110 was a Liberator (blue on blue?) or your Mosquito was a Lancaster and I will retract. By this I mean not that wreckage for one fitted a combat for the other but that the claimant identified the claim definitively. Markings, crash site. If so then I don't understand why the claim is misidentified. I don't doubt the fallibility of fighter pilots claims is proved but the attribution of loss of their opponents may be.

Show me how a radial engine Fw190 looks like a Bf109? Different engine, wings, tailplane, armament, fuselage....cockpit? Gun camera footage is able to be interpreted I agree but to allocate damage requires distinct circumstances. For example a single target (usually a bomber or recce aircraft) attacked in isolation by one or several fighters. If you are close enough to claim damage then surely you are close enought to identify your target?

I have seen a lot of gun camera footage and the only time I have been in doubt has been when it is impossible to identify an opponent or that the footage was so distant that it shows the claimant may have contributed to the destruction of the object but was so far away that evidence was not conclusive.

regards

Keith

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Keith
Really, I am not sure what you are after. The Liberator was a well known case of Me 110 shot down by Slovak airmen of 13 Letka back in the summer of 1944. The Lancaster (or Halifax not sure) was a Mosquito of No 13 Sqn downed by Warren Peake. More such cases are known, but I am really in no position to list them here.
I cannot show you the photo of the 109, I do not have it handy, but it was taken by F/S Tadeusz Góra in the summer of 1943. Believe it or not, DB 605 was bloody big.

A while ago on the forum there was a lengthy inconclusive discussion on a gun camera photo. There were several voices voting for Ju 87, Fw 190D or even Ta 152.
Mind you, widely available films are those which went through selection, the best of. There are several, however, that the enemy cannot be identified without any doubt, and there is also one important factor. Those films could be shown in slow motion, and paused if necessary. Pilots had no such comfort, fought in adverse conditions, and had no time for lengthy considerations.

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Just a side-note. Some might ask about Gv.St.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov, a 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP Yak-3 pilot, who died on November 16, 1944 and is not listed among the losses of the day. I missed him purposely. The reason is yes, he died on November 16, 1944 indeed, but in a hospital, not in a dogfight. He was downed a few days earlier, on November 7, 1944, so he is listed on that day. Poor pilot was badly burned and died in a few days in hospital, probably of sepsis. I do not know exactly his plane number on November 7, 1944, but the 13 GvIAD HQ (Stab) has erased a Yak-3 from combat service by November 11, 1944 due to a dogfight, - without pilot. Its number was 3229214, '32'. I assume that this 150 GvIAP pilot borrowed and flew this Yak-3 of his Division Stab, not an official 150 GvIAP plane, so this is what I listed for him on November 7, 1944: 3229214.

32 = Plane number within batch, also the factory applied tactical marking
292 = Factory No.292 in Saratov, Russia
14 = Batch No.14

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thanks Gizmo, what are the exact circumstances of his claim? Time, location, etc.?

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I was based on the most used files made by Tonny Wood.
Unfortunately, for this day there is no data as to the places of shooting down, but it looks like it's the same fight of 7. Staffel. There is also another candidate in the person of Hptm. Sturm, who claimed two La-5.

31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.18 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 935
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.23 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 936
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.26 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 937
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.28 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 938
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 08.21 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Hptm. Erich Hartmann 7./JG 52 Yak-7 �� 15.30 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.37 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.42 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.17 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.19 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Gizmo, on October 31, 1944 the 5 VA, 14 GvIAD (177, 178, 179 GvIAPs) has lost two La-5s from 177 GvIAP:

Lavochkin La-5F, №39215187 (white '87'), engine: №6504058 - гв.к-н Мордухович Павел Яковлевич (№048366, MIA) "В 17:25 пара Мордухович-Абрамов на Н-2000 м встретили 2 ФВ-190 и 2 Ме-109. Мордухович атаковал пару ФВ, не замечая, что МЕ атаковали его. Абрамов, отбивая их Атаки, Абрамов вошел в облачность и потерял ведущего. Не видел и не слышал по радио." - 17:25 is Moscow time, 15:25 local. Mission flown in Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area. Time 15:30 (only 5 mins. diff.!) and area 98 799 in Hartmann's claim is exactly Kerekegyháza-N! You decide, whichever is closer in time and space...


Lavochkin La-5FN, №41210105 (white '05'), engine: №8212379 - гв.л-т Куншин Алексей Александрович (№048372, MIA) - "Свободная охота с разведкой Цеглед, Ясапати, Сольнок. 11:25 Штурмовали жд состав на дороге Цеглед-Сольнок, ведомый одновременно штурмовал автоколонну Цеглед-Сольнок. Ведомый утерял Куньшина, выходившего разворотом вправо и больше не видел. Через 5 минут полета ведомый наблюдал в этом районе очаг пожара, предположительно горел самолет."

The other Lavochkin division of 5 VA (279 IAD: 92, 192, 486 IAPs) suffered no permanent AC losses this day. Therefore any La-5 claim in the op. area of 5 VA that exceeds 2 planes should be considered overclaim.

See brief summary of both losses in 177 GvIAP diary on October 31, 1944.
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

As you say Franek, no point in discussing it further, I am too old a hare to change my mind unless I have definitive proof and my comments on attribution linked to losses, (especially where the loss in no way resembles the claim) stand. Again we will have to agree to differ, life's too short .

Mistakes in identification do happen, but when they verge on the fantastic I go with what is credible, even if it's frustrating.

Have a happy new year

regards

Keith

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

I am wondering if there is any record available on the strength of the German flight (No. of Bf 109s) during Hartmann's claims. This might help to narrow down the possibilities. Eg. on November 16, 1944 Koptelov's Yak-9D (5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, S/N: 2015370) was hit by 2 Bf 109s out of six. See in first list in this thread. Did Hartman fly in a group of 6 (or so) Bf 109 this time? Or he just usually flew in recce. pairs? If so, he just had one witness...etc. Narrative report:

"14:20 (Moscow time) 4 Як Н-3000 м при подходе к району патрулирования севернее Ясберень, атаковаы 2-мя Ме-109 снизу в лоб из группы в 6 Ме-109. Приняли лобовую атаку, после чего развернулись на 180 гр и стали преследовать группу Ме-109. После атаки мотор задымил, стали ррваться снаряды. Коптелов развернулся и с курсом 90 гр пошел на свою территорию по реке Тисса. ??12 км восточнее Яскишер на Н-800 м самолет загорелся?? выпрыгнул из горящего самолета на парашюте. Самолет сгорел, летчик прибыл в часть 18.11.44."

(See brief loss entry for Koptelov.)
Thanks, - and Happy New Year!
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thank you for continuing to share your excellent ressearch with us, Gabor.

From my own experience, the reports by all sides concerning the size of enemy formations encountered can be very inaccurate, so I wouldn't necessarily trust that report that six 109s were present, double counting by pilots is a possibility.

As I mentioned in a message to you, it is really writing up some of your research as an article.

Happy New Year!

Dan

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thanks Dan, but in research I hate time pressure, so if I decide to write an article, I would rather complete it first, before contacting any publisher. But back to Hartmann. On November 17, 1944 he claimed an Boston III bomber:

316: 17.11.1944 – 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m

In November, 1944 the soviets were still testing the defense of the Hungarian capital, Budapest. On November 4, 1944 eg. a mixed soviet tank-group reached the -SE suburbs of the city and got completely destroyed. 8 SU-76M of 1509 САП, 1 IS-2 heavy tank of 30 Гв.ОТТП and 3-4 T-34 of 39 Гв.ТП burned out at Pestszentimre ('Pest-St. Emeric') - Gyál in a well organized ambush. Learning the lesson, the soviets decided to keep a little break and gather more forces before starting the actual battle for the city.

The 5th Air Army also flew recce. missions over the City. As part of this, on November 17, 1944 small groups of 5 VA, 218 BAD A-20G Bostons bombed the southern area of Budapest. As discussed earlier, the 453 BAP lost 2 Bostons this day, one in combat mission, one in an accident. These were the only Boston losses of the 5 VA on November 17, 1944. The one lost in combat (A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53956) from a group of 3 Bostons became Capt. Pottyondy László, Hungarian ace's (102/2. Sq.) confirmed victory. 6 Bf 109s attacked the plane, including the pair of friends: Hartmann and Pottyondy, shooting out its RIGHT engine (radial R-2600-23, S/N: 42-174979). Both the Hungarian and the soviet reports agree in this detail! The bomber crashlanded and burned. Only 2 crewmen returned to their lines (Pilot Danielyan, and gunner Kopilov), the other 2 (Rizhkov and Vigovskii) died in the fighter-fire.

But: Other Bostons also reported dogfights in the Budapest-S area! Perhaps one of these was attacked and claimed by Hartmann. But if so, it was an overclaim:

While leaving the target at 2600 m, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Maj. Evgenii Efimovich Stroganov (under 15-20 degree angle) was attacked by 2 Bf 109s. Radioman-air gunner, Sgt. Alexei Ermolaevich Chernikov claimed a Bf 109 shot down.

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, 3rd Sq. A-20G Boston, piloted by Capt. Pavel Arsentevich Zhalibo (к-н Жалибо Павел Арсентьевич, Sq. commander (№046738)) was attacked by 9 Bf 109 under ~25-30 degree angle. All attack were repelled by the gunners, but during the last strike the plane was slightly damaged. (AC number is unknown, but on January 2, 1945 Zhalibo was killed in A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54186, so perhaps he flew the same plane this time too. Capt. Zhalibo (and his crew), by the way, was a real hero. While taking off from Debrecen airfield towards the city for another Budapest mission, one of their engines stopped. Instead of releasing their bomb-load on civilians and the city, at low altitude, he tried to return to their airfield with the fully loaded bomber, flying on only one engine. They reached the airfield OK, but at landing their bomb-load went off and the whole crew lost their lives.)

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Ml.Lt. Petr Mihailovich Kovzalov, flight-commander was attacked by 4 Bf 109s without any result. They were flying recce-bombing mission in the Dunaföldvár-Budapest-S area.

Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Hi Gabor, excellent research!

Do you get your info from Pamyat Naroda, or do you do own research in the TsAMO files?

Have you seen my recently published Black Cross/Red Star, Volume 4?

https://vaktelforlag.se/produkt/blac...ban-1942-1943/

Happy New Year & all the best,

Christer Bergström

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Thanks Christer.
Yes, I know that site (and a few others), but the core info in this research was straight from TsAMO docs (combat unit diaries, maintenance-, mechanical-papers: notes and photocopies) from Podolsk, Russia, provided by local Russian researcher colleagues, having access to the Archives and helping our museum. As far as I know, most of these docs are not available on the internet. For several years, I have been the volunteer 'database admin' of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum (living abroad), which organized aircraft recovery and restoration for all, including soviet aircrafts in Hungary. To be able to identify the recovered remains we needed to build a detailed database of them, including AC serial and aircraft-engine serial numbers, crew lists, etc. on ALL lost soviet warplanes in Hungary, mainly in 1944-45, - and a few after 1942. These were lost planes of the soviet 5th Air Army (2nd ukrainian Front), 17th Air Army (3rd Ukrainian Front), plus some 8th Air Army and Long-Range Air Army planes. ALL losses in the country. Using this database we were able to identify several soviet planes and through them a few missing crewmembers as well. Luckily the engine serials are still well visible on most of the recovered engines and the AC serial is also visible in some cases. (See IL-2m3 S/N: 1875397 on a recovered aluminum fragment from the plane of the Ml.Lt. Evgenii Pavlovich Kartashev - Sgt. Vladimir Alexeevich Gladkov crew.)
For a long time I have not even thought to use this database to check Axis claims, we used it only for plane IDs. But then I read Helmut Lipfert's book and randomly compared it to the soviet losses. I was positively shocked to see that almost all of Lipfert's claims match the soviet reports. Then -just out of curiosity-, I checked Hartmann's claims. Telling you, it was a negative shock!!! To me: a 'historical-scale' shock to realize, how weak his claims and his '352' can be... Now I know, only about 30% of his claims were potential victories, the rest were just damaged planes (at best) for the time period of his service in Hungary. This is a unique situation to be able to compare claims to verified losses of the other side. No room for excuses, legends, and no room for bla-bla...
That's it. Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Christer, your book looks awesome! Do you plan to write it all the way to VE-Day? All the best and Happy New Year!
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Gabor,

I believe that when comparing claims to losses we should be checking out everything that can possibly be checked – no matter how ridiculous it may appear to be at the time. Most times you will come up blank but occasionally you will come across something that will totally surprise you (as others on TOCH have highlighted). Anything written about claims will be subject to a great deal of scrutiny and if anything is missed in the research it effects the credibility of the author.

Anyway, I’ve attached 2 word document files – I tried to post these but due to formatting issues (especially with the tables)- it didn’t come out well, so I’ve put them in word format attachments.

The first is about the claims data used for your analysis which I have concerns about, especially the Il-2 claims.

The second is something that I wrote to Johannes a few years ago when discussing whether Hartmann was a fraudulent claimer. I’ve modified it a bit from the original I sent Johannes but still contains some information that some may find interesting.

For what it’s worth I believe Hartmann over-claimed and was not a fraud. I believe the true extent of his claims is somewhere between 175 and 250.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Craig, thank you very much for the attached docs. It will definitely take for awhile to go through them in detail. For now, I just emphasize that my numbers came strictly from the verified losses of the other (soviet) side. Since I did not just want to make short statements of victories and/or overclaims, I listed all soviet plane losses of the days, when Hartmann claimed a plane, at least between October 27-December 9, 1944 with details. (This way you can also judge if a certain case could be a victory, or just an overclaim.)
I know, Hartmann's claims is a huge job and I think nobody would be able to complete it alone. My calculation of Hartmann's approx. 100 real WWII victories comes from his overclaim/victory-ratio between Oct 27 - Dec 9, 1944. (~28 claims) If for any reason his claims were more accurate in the earlier, or in the later stages of the war, then certainly this number will change accordingly.

At this point I still think that if the soviets lost no plane on a specific day/time/location, then it does not really matter what theories and numbers we use, all of these claims for the day will remain just overclaims. (Even if the planes were really hit and damaged by Hartmann, - that I do not doubt.)

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 

Well,

With Gabor's research and this other recent thread:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=55731

We have not one but TWO periods of Hartmann's claiming to examine in-depth....