Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Hi
I am looking for information about details of crashes of Me 110s on 7 September 1940. I know that 3M+FL - exploded in the air, 3M+BB - lost tail and A2+ML - ditched. I am lacking information if any of the remaining four, 3M+LM, A2+BH, A2+JH and A2+NH suffered any structural failure prior to the crash.
Anyone know anything?
TIA

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

John Vasco will know-PM him

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Re: 3M+LM. This code is inconsistent for a 3./ZG 2 machine. The pilot Friedrich Kislinger was killed in the crash; the Bordfunker Reinhold Dahnke baled out into captivity, and it is likely that he gave an incorrect code to his interrogator (this would not be the only time misinformation was proffered). In 'Zerstörer' by Peter Cornwell and myself, the aircraft details are given as follows: Bf 110 C-4, 3M+LL, W. Nr. 2216. The fuselage code and W. Nr. is consistent with documentation found on an officer of I./ZG 2, which gave a full run-down of fuselage codes and their associated W. Nr.. This document is published on page 365 of 'Luftwaffe Crash Archive Volume 3' by Red Kite. I recommend this series highly, as well as the present series of 'Battle of Britain Combat Archive' by the same publisher.

As for the other 3 Bf 110s, they were shot down in combat, and so it is impossible (I would suggest) to say whether there was any structural failure of the airframes, but it is most likely to have happened to so degree or other if they were hammered by RAF fighters, which they were.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Many thanks!
Sorry, I have not noticed that there are differencies in the code in BoB T&N and Blitz T&N. LL in the latter.

In regard of disintegration - structural failure, if something fell off in the air, it should be spread around quite an area, and in relatively good condition. This could be reflected in crash reports or post war investigations or digs. If crashed in one piece, there should be a big hole and nothing else. I have not noticed such information in the books, and I am unable to conduct a research on my own in this area, hence the question. Also I understand, that at least one airman was machine gunned on a parachute. My guess is A2+NH, but not sure about other aircraft.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Franek,
You must understand that the role of the crash investigators was to gather intelligence on what came to earth. They had a set of 'pointers' issued by A.I.1.(g), which guided them through what information to gather - this information was then telephoned through to RAF Intelligence HQ. You can see the 'Form C' that they had to follow on page 259 of 'Luftwaffe Crash Archive Volume 3' by Red Kite. I can scan the page and post it up her for you if you wish. The crash investigators concentrated on markings (to identify the unit), armament (to possibly identify new equipment), combat damage, internal equipment, and so on. They did not concern themselves with the minute details of the combat - that would possibly come later if the crew survived into captivity.

As for A2+NH, it is stated that it 'exploded in mid-air and wreckage scattered over a wide area, with the crew being blown out they were unable to deploy their parachutes'. Have not come across anything regarding any Bf 110 crewman being shot in his parachute for this action. Perhaps you could provide the source?

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Hi

I understand that the CEAR repots may not contain all the details, and it seems they largely improved in later years as K-Reports did. Anyway, I understand that such informationmight be available in a number of sources, local reports, police reports, photos, etc.

In regard of NH, F/L Lane, attributed to the victory does not mention explosion, but he does note that two airmen bailed out. Parachute of one failed, but the other one looked like being taken PoW by the local girls. So either he attacked another aircraft (he specifically mentions Hornchurch, however) or something happened with the airman on the way down.

My source is a period account of one of the pilots involved. It was filed the same day or few days later, independently from the combat report. The pilot and his section leader attacked two Dorniers. The other one attacked by section leader went down in flames. The pilot in question specifically mentioned, that his target burst like a bubble, and that he then took a jumper on his crosshair, and finished him off. Sounds very much like NH, did not it?

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Franek,

First of all, you must understand that a distinction must be made between the 'K' reports and the 'K' summaries.

The 'K' report was an individual file that was raised on a particular incident, most commonly on the interrogation of prisoners.

What was circulated to various Commands were 'K' summaries.

The two are quite separate documents.

As to A2+NH, the research done by Peter Cornwell and myself, the Bf 110 was shot down by F/O Holderness of No. 1 Squadron and P/O Janough of No. 310 Squadron. It was also attacked by F/Lt. Lane of 19 Squadron.

From our book, 'Zerstörer', page 194: "...The pilot, 22 year-old Berliner Leutnant Kurt Schünemann, Gruppe Technical Officer of II./ZG 2. baled out too low for his parachute to fully deploy and was killed. His Bordfunker, Unteroffizier Hans Mescheder, was even less fortunate, for his parachute failed completely and he plunged to his death among some cottages at Cranham..."

Could you explain what CEAR reports are?

Finally, could you also give more details regarding the information contained in the last paragraph?

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

John

So perhaps I am confused with various reports.

CEAR is Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report. They varied in volume, depending on what was available to investigate. I have seen a one of about two pages for a Fw 190 downed in Normany, IIRC.

The K Reports that I have seen (1943-44) were about one-two pages summary of an interrogation of an airman. Those were not Q-A files.

The reports that I have got for BoB were very brief half a page reports with limited details, quite a disappointment, and I have not pursued it any further. Do I recon correctly, those were summaries?

I guess then that Lane did not see the descent of an airman, and I can only assume that the parachute canopy was shot up to collapse.

The Czech airman was Svatopluk JANOUCH. I could not locate Holderness's report, but there was at least one more RAF pilot attacking the aircraft.

The document was a diary held by one of No 303 Sqn pilots, Ferić, filed in Polish at the time of the Battle. A number of pilots put their accounts there, usually more detailed, and sometimes different to combat reports (I guess they had some problems to communicate to IO). What else details do you need?

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Franek,
Yes, the 'K' report is the intelligence document relating to the interrogation. I have seen one, and it was VERY interesting. I will not divulge the source.

The 'K' summaries are exactly that. Summaries of the complete interrogation report, together with details of the crashed aircraft. This would be a summary: "...The K Reports that I have seen (1943-44) were about one-two pages summary of an interrogation of an airman..." An actual 'K' report contains questions & answers. The one I saw was quite incredible with regard to what the German prisoner was confronted with.

I do not need more details, I was just curious that you made certain statements, without citing your sources to back them up.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

John

As long as there is no complete set of detailed K Reports of the period, I am not keen to pursue it any further. I understand that they were destroyed, as otherwise there would be many such reports quoted.

That said I have get through a set of interrogation reports of a Gestapo officer, and that was extremelly interesting, indeed.

That said, I do not think that there would be any document detailing formation and tactics of ZG2 that day, and I must say this is pretty confusing, as it seems the formation attacked flew in a typical bomber formation.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Franek,
The 'K' reports were closed for 75 years (from 1940). However, I have not heard that they have been released to our National Archive. Even if they do still exist, it is likely their existence will be denied. That is standard practise for previously secret/sensitive documents. The 'K' summaries 'did not exist' until they started appearing through requests via the Freedom of Information Act in the USA!

The tactics for a pure Bf 110 fighter unit would be escort to a bomber formation. The actual formation would, I think, be down to the Staffelkapitän or Staffelführer, particularly as the Battle of Britain progressed and formations would likely be of reduced numbers, unless more than one Staffel formed up together.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

John


I am really not sure what sensitive information could be in K Reports. Certainly there was no such information in the Gestapo officer interrogation report, who no doubt was through much more thorough questioning. So it looks like bureaucratic attempt to keep the red tape, rather than anything else. Let's hope they were not dumped. One may wonder whatever else is kept in hiding - I have seen a number of loose documents, which do not appear as sets in TNA.



I assume that 110's tactics changed depending on mission. I have not seen any description on typical battle formations thoough. Getting through the combat reports it looks that I/ZG 2 aircraft patrolled between He 111s and Me 109s, and then formed a Lufberry circle over Thames Est. The formation attacked by No 303 was in vics of five and three, and no doubt there were Me 110s of II/ZG 2. Still not sure if they were masquerading as bombers to attract attention or of they were flying a close escort do Dorniers. Quite confusing.

Re NH, the RAF pilot was Sgt Proctor. There was another 310 pilot attacking it, and it seems two 303 aircraft, so at least seven different pilots took part. Of course unless they were confused as to what they were firing at and what they were seeing. The most evident case I came across was another 310 pilot, who fired at one aircraft, which went down, but then he watched another one, which also crashed.

The tactics for a pure Bf 110 fighter unit would be escort to a bomber formation. The actual formation would, I think, be down to the Staffelkapitän or Staffelführer, particularly as the Battle of Britain progressed and formations would likely be of reduced numbers, unless more than one Staffel formed up together.[/quote]

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

The reason the actual Q&A reports are so sensitive is because they show exactly what the PoW gave away under interrogation. Many of them cracked under pressure. We were quite ruthless, given that we believed invasion could occur at any time. In with the Q&A is also the record of information obtained by hidden microphones, and also 'stool pigeons'. Had these been made available during the PoWs lifetime, or even now, it would be 100% embarrassment to the individual, or family, concerned. So we 'lose' these kind of documents, or say they no longer exist. Or we say they are closed upon review for another 100 years. That's how things work with the Government. If they don't want you to see it, you ain't gonna see it!

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Franek, in case it wasn’t clear from John’s reply, the transcripts of thousands of prisoners’ conversations picked up by hidden microphones in do exist and can be seen at the National Archives in London.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

To add to what John has said, pre-NA release, I had access to said reports. When I got copies, the paragraph which usually contained morale or political leanings was blocked out as some of those were now successful businessmen etc. For example, one of my contacts who was now a Dr was described in 1944 as "more Nazi than a Nazi"

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Hi
Well, actually I am after the narratives describing circumnstances of loss. I can say, that those of 1943-44 period were extremely useful and interesting.

Yes, I am aware of transcripts of recorded talks, there was a book published about the operation just few years ago. Therefore I am even more surprised that the K Reports are not released. I would understand 100 years since birth rule, but then it should be explicitly said.
Political leanings might be more an embarassment for the HM government or FRG government rather than persons involved. As noted, many of the airmen became prominent figures in the West Germany, and for the past decades they were friends, allies in NATO. Soviet propaganda often portrayed FRG as a bunch of Nazis, and well, getting through SD & Gestapo personal files, it indeed looks so. Quite recently there was such a pressure on the US government, that several secret files form various agencies were released. I can imagine thatthe pattern could be repeated in regard of K Reports.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Going back to the losses of Me 110s. As far as I was able to work out, based on published data and combat reports the situation was as follows. Anyone can fill any gap? What surprises me is the lack of any aircraft listed damaged, but making back to France.

I/ZG 2.
1. Billericay 3M+BB - port eng on fire, then starboard, tail broke off in dive and then spun down, two baled out, PoW.
2. Herne Bay 3M+LL - gunner baled out, PoW.
3. Deal 3M+FL - both engines on fire (which first?), blew up, two baled out but killed.


II/ZG 2.
1. Hornchurch Stab A2+NH - stbd engine on fire, two baled out but killed.
2. Little Burstead 4 A2+BH - port engine on fire then stbd one, crew baled out? Both killed.
3. Wickford 4 A2+JH - dived to the ground, both killed.
4. Birchington 6 A2+ML - ditched, pilot resc, PoW, gunner killed.

Re: Me 110 losses on 7 September 1940 - circumstances
 

Not to go too much further off track but I wonder why a good portion of Target Force or T-Force reports remain classified. I thought there was a 50 year rule.