Do 17Z-7
 

What happened to Do 17Z-7 Werke Nummer 2817 coded R4+HK. It crashlanded on the 9th of November 1940 and got 10% damaged. What was its final fate ??

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

It doesn't figure again in Do 17 losses

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

It survived well in to 1943

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Thanks friends, that closed a whole in my knowledge
Carsten

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

According to the Dutch Loss Register, this was a Do 17 Z-10.
The aircraft was damaged by a Hurricane 20 km east of Lincoln and was belly-landed at Gilze-Rijen, with two injured crew members on board.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

That is incorrect; this is taken from my forthcoming book based on the photo of the aircraft on the ground after its return:

Do 17 Z-7, Wk Nr 2817 R4+HK of 2./NJG 2. Damaged by Flak on an intruder sortie on 9 November 1940, it crash-landed at Gilze-Rijen. Ofw Herbert Schmidt (F) was injured but Ofw Paul Rosenberger (BF) and Uffz Karl Lang (BM) were slightly injured. Note no Spanner Anlage on this aircraft. Luftwaffe records list this aircraft as being a Z-10 but the nose would indicate otherwise.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

The interesting thing is that it is registered correctly as a Z-7 in the Gen.Qu. Loss list which means that the Z-10 designation entered in for example Balss' book and "Deutsche nachtjagd Materialverluste in Ausbildung und Einsatz" is a post war man made error - much like the Vkz. R4+HL Vkz given by the same source instead of the accurate R4+HK.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Here it is

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Thank you Chris and Mikael for clearing it up.

I unfortunately find an error every now and then in Michael Balss records...

Nice picture, the nose looks reworked? Or is that damage to the photo print?

Regards,

Timon

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

According to the Gen.Qu. loss return from 10 Nov 1940 item 14 only the BF and the BM were injured. This entry was corrected on 22 May 1941: both were uninjured.

Here a quote from Luftwaffe im Focus edition 10 pages 12 and 13 with a photo of a Do 17 Z-7 in service with 2./NJG 2 at Gilze Rijen:

"… This three-seat aircraft represented an attempt by Dornier to provide the Luftwaffe with a long-range night-fighter. Dornier simply fitted the nose of the Ju 88 C, including armament (1 MG 151, 3 MG 17s), onto a Do 17 bomber, production of which had terminated. The resulting conversion was designated the Do 17 Z-6 "Kauz" (Owl). As this initial conversion was very makeshift in appearance, Dornier reworked the C-nose to better fit the Do 17 fuselage. The result was the Do 17 Z-7 "Kauz I". Just three aircraft were so converted in the summer of 1940, however only two have so far been identified, Werknr. 2834 and 2817…… From Gilze Rijen the aircraft flew long-range night-fighter missions over England. At 0900 hours on 9 Nov. 1940, while on such mission, Werknr. 2817 (R4+HK) was damaged in a combat with a Hurricane near Lincoln. Pilot Ofw. Schmidt flew the aircraft back to Gilze Rijen on one engine and made a belly landing at the edge of the airfield. Damage was assessed at 10%. The aircraft was repaired and in 1941 was still serving with the Gruppe in Sicily…".

Regards
Leo

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Hello Leo,

Unfortunately the text in Luftwaffe Focus edition 10 contain some errors.

1) The Do 17 Z-6 had nothing to do with Kauz night fighters, it is an unfortunate misstake which is repeated all to often in publications and on the web

2) The first short nosed night figher Dornier were the Do 17 Z-7 Kaus I (more than three built and there are more W.Nr. identified)
3) The improved version was labelled Do 17 Z-10 Kauz II

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

...and from what I have seen, intruders should not be operating at 0900 hrs and in any case, there were no claims for a Do 17 damaged. I believe it is an assumption that this was the aircraft claimed as destroyed off Skegness by 151 Sqn. Intruders were active the night of 8-9 Nov 40 attacking Driffield, Hemswell, Scampton and Hucknall. They did report 3 Spitfires and a twin-engined fighter and claimed to have possibly shot down a Spitfire (!). A later report mentions a Spitfire being encountered over Driffield at 0900 hrs on 9 Nov 40 but Skegness to Driffield is quite a distance and the Do 17 was attacked inbound to the target it would appear.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

BAMA
Junker

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Dear all,

Chris -your remark 'intruders should not be operating at 0900 hrs' is incorrect in this case, this is what I've quoted from the Flugbuch of Ofw. Schmid in the NCA series: The pilot, Ofw. Herbert Schmid recorded in his Flugbuch: “2555th flight, Schmid + 2, Do17 Z R4 HK, Nachtjagd, Gilze-Rijen 9.11. 06.50, Gilze-Rijen 9.11. 11.10, 260 (mins), 1300 (kms), 24th Einsatz E(ngland), enemy contact, belly landing”.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Hello Mikael, Chris, Junker and Theo,

many thanks for your clarifications.

Regards
Leo

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Thanks Theo-unusual if not brave. However, the only combat was 0900 hrs German time and nowhere near Driffield which he is said to have attacked and apparently claimed a Spitfire which he does not mention?

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Chris, I would highly recommend purchasing the most recent work of Dr. Boiten, the Nachtjagd Combat Archive The Early Years part one.
To give supplemental information for the night of 8-9 November:

The OKL reported on 9 November that none of them achieved 'Feindberührung'. Ten Fernnachtjäger of I./NJG 2 were active over Britain, the crew dropping 1.7 tons of HE bombs on three aerodromes. One intruder, a Do 17 Z-10 (so it's actually a Z-7) of 2./NJG 2 was badly damaged in combat with two 151 Squadron Hurricanes at dawn off Skegness and limped back to Gilze-Rijen on one engine and with two injured crew members.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Thanks I am aware of Theo's works but I refer to the locations, the aircraft attacked was approaching the coast and not over Driffield which was 80+ miles away and the fact the RAF pilots said it crashed in the sea, a crash confirmed by other sources. The fog of war again!

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Interesting topic

Some observations.

Very unfortunate that Luftwaffe in Focus make such glaring mistakes as this.

Something must have attacked Schmidt's Kauz since he says so himself in his FB. Since his FB does not say when or where I doubt that OKL had any closer details of exactly where that happened either.

So what did he encounter?
Intruders over Britain by Simon Perry says it was a Beaufighter
Battle of Britain, the forgotten months by John Foreman says it was AA-fire near Lincoln
Luftwaffe in Focus mentions a Hurricane near Lincoln.
Chris and Tiger points to 151 Sq (operating Hurricanes) and a claim off Skegness (they seems to me to be the best bet!)
Officially from OKL only Spitfires and a twin-engined aircraft are mentioned

I am also interesting in why Schmidt's aircraft is said to have been heavily damaged. 10% is a very slight damage, especially if an aircraft is belly landed! To have one engine shot out and then belly land it and only suffer 10% damage is quite a miracle the way I see it.....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Heavily is kind of big word indeed. Substantial would be a better fit.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Well Tiger

Even substantial is in my books far worse than 10%....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

From TSAMO, I've attached the sitrep extract for the night of 8-9 November (assuming this is the right one). It ran across two pages so I made a composite image.

Regarding any "Feindberührung", see the passage: "Our night fighters had engagements with two Spitfires and one twin-engined fighter. One Spitfire was probably shot down in the process."

It says on later pages that 10 night fighters were operating and that total losses on the 8th were 3 Ju 87 and a Ju 88. Later still, without giving a time or place, it mentions defence by "3 night fighters with unsuccessful attack".

Given that the Do 17 under discussion crashed on the 9th, it may be relevant that that day's sitrep gives total losses as one Do 17 and two Ju 88.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Must be an error in Boiten's work then, regarding the Feindberührung?

Timon

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

no error here -the Nahnachtjäger reported no enemy contact/Feindberührung ..

Cheers, Theo

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Welp, sorry about that... I was too quick.

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Hi,

On page 110, book2, of "Vijf jaar luchtfront" (1984) it say's that a forced, single engine, landing was made since the landinggear would not come down. Only 50 m from the "Gefechtstand" the Do17 came to a halt. Tower was informed prior the belly-landing.

Regards,

Benno

Re: Do 17Z-7
 

Hi Benno
Thanks for the information

What series of books are Vijf jaar luchtfront ?