John C. Dundas
 

Hi!
I've been unable to find his actual date of birth.
Can someone help me?
TIA

CJE

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Hello CJE
About John C. Dundas. You probably mean:
/O Hugh Spencer Lisle 'Cocky' Dundas was born in Yorkshire on the 22nd of July 1920 he was the younger brother of J.C.Dundas. He was educated at Stowe public school. He flew with No 616 Spitfire Squadron and No 242 Hurricane Squadron (flew with Douglas Bader) during the Battle of Britain. He was wounded in the arm and leg when he baled out of his Spitfire I (R6926) on the 22nd of August 1940 after combat with a Bf 109 at 19:30hrs.
Later on he flew in Italy.
Hugh (cocky) Dundas was a Wing Commander and Group captain from April 1945 being one of the youngest, at 25, in the war to hold this position.
You may want to look up some of the facts from his book called "Flying Start" by Hugh Dundas (Stanley Paul & Co Ltd an imprint of Century Hutchinson).
On the Fly it states:
31/05/44 Posted to 244 wing,
Wing Leader of 5 squadrons of Spitfires
19/11/44 Promoted to Group Captain of 244 Wing.

Hope this is the Dundas you are looking for.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Oooops,
CJE
I was to quick with my reply. There was a John C. Dundas, the elder brother of 'Cocky' Dundas. His data.

Born: Thursday August 19, 1915
Died: Thursday 28 November 1940 (killed in action)

John Charles Dundas joined squadron 609 in the summer of 1938 during a period of rapid expansion of all the armed forces. He was academically gifted, starting with a scholarship to Stowe at the age of 12 followed a year later with six credits on his school certificate. A further scholarship was won at the age of 17 to Christchurch, Oxford , culminating in a first in modern history. Aftr this breathtaking achievement, he won an award which took him to the Sorbonne and Heidelberg universities.
John was an aristrocrat, intellectual, athelete, humourist and a journalist on the staff on the Yorkshire Post. He was sent to Czechoslovakia at the time of the Munich crisis in 1938 to report on the international response, as he was regarded as a specialist in foreign affairs. Later he accompanied the then Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax, the Foreign Minister of State, to Rome to meet Premiere Benito Mussolini.
Squadron Leader Michael Lister-Robinson spoke of John Dundas as "an excellent pilot, if a little overconfident, and had to be watched". On 27th of November 1940, a report came through to squadron operations that a Ju88 was returning to France, crossing the coast not far from Middle Wallop, where the squadron was based. John immediately asked permission to chase it but was refused. He then asked if he could lead a training flight and permission was agreed. As soon as he was airborne, he peeled off the formation and headed straight for the coast at full boost. He managed to catch up with the Ju88 over the Cherbourg peninsula and finished it off. Alone and almost directly above an airfield well stocked with Me109's, he hightailed it back home. The following day his escapades ended when he lost his life. As befitted his life, his departue was observed by a chorus of staff officers and cadets from Sandhurst. The Squadron diary records:
"Flight Lieutenant Dundas was heard by the Controller (Flight Lieutenant Fieldsend) and by his CO to say over the RT "Whoopee! I've got a 109" to which Robinson was heard to reply "Good show, John" - after which nothing more was seen or heard of Dundas although Robinson tried persistently to talk to him"
Later that day, it is reported that the Luftwaffe High Command appealed to the Air Ministry for infomation about the fate of one of their top three fighter commanders, a Major Helmut Wick. It was soon established that Major Wick was flying the Me109 which had been shot down by Flt Lt Dundas, soon after which the German no2 and no3 destroyed Johns' aircraft, and also shot down his wingman, Plt Off Baillon. Major Helmut Wick, who had claimed the second highest German total (after Adolf Galland) of 56 victories, was John Dundas' thirteenth victim, and he was posthumously awarded a bar to the DFC already won the previous month.

The information you can find, together with a photografph on:
http://www.elliottdundas.freeserve.c..._62.htm#part10

Re: John C. Dundas
 

He is THE Dundas I was looking for.
Thanks.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

It is better to say that it was soon assumed that Dundas shot down Wick. There have been other suggestions made in recent years, that a more junior pilot was responsible. I'm sorry, I didn't keep any reference to it.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Indeed. This case is subject to a thoroughgoing analyse, covering an entire chapter, in my book "Luftstrid över Kanalen"/"Battle over Britain". (See link below.) Many records and eye-witness accounts from both sides are presented to form a final conclusion. Please allow me to save this until my book is published.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

To Goos

A DFC or DSO was NEVER awarded posthumously, unlike the VC.
It's just because it was "gazetted" after his death (actually gazetted on 07.01.41).

Re: John C. Dundas
 

CJE
The article states is was the bar to his DSC that was posthumely awarded, not the DFC. I do not know if your remark on the posthumely awarded DFC also applies to the bar. Well, it is not of great interest, I just quoted the message on the Dundas website. I asume that will not be wrong.
Goos

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Perhaps a false assumption. A bar is just the second award of a medal, and the same rules apply. The VC is the only medal which can be awarded posthumously, as far as I am aware. perhaps unfair, but there it is.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Graham,
It's a right assumption, a bar is a second (or even third in some cases) award of a DFM, DFC or DSO.
None of them are awarded posthumously.
It's just a question of time between the award and the publication in the London Gazette.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Sorry CJE, perhaps I should have been clearer. I was referring to the assumption that the Dundas website would not be wrong. That is a false assumption.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

It's probably because they are not aware of how things worked.
It doesn't change anything now, but had he been still alive then, he would have had his bar anyway.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Actually, this was a subject of my article published in Polish Model Hobby magazine. I have quoted there most important accounts of Fiby and Meimberg as well as of Ogilvie and Marrs. I have more stuff that I was unable to put in, including some non published stuff. Anyway, the conclusion is clear and obvious - Dundas could not have downed Wick, the latter being most likely damaged by Marrs and then finished off by Klein, both very experienced but now forgotten pilots. My article includes several photos of Wick's aircraft, as well as a beautiful shot of his last victim, 152 Sqn's Spitfire.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

Franek,
Would you be kind enough to contact me off-line at this address:
cje.01@wanadoo.fr
Thanks.

Re: John C. Dundas
 

It seems as though we have used the same sources. I assume you have used the ORBs and Combat Reports at National Archive too? Let's see if we have arrived at the same conclusion. . . :)

Unfortunately I don't read Polish, and since I assume your knowledge in Polish is on about the same level as my Polish, maybe we'll have to wait until the English edition of my book is published. The Swedish is scheduled to be published next month. The English edition was planned for December, but today I heard from the publisher that the translator might not be able to finish it in time for a December publication, so early 2007 is more likely for the publishing of the English edition.

Come on, Christer...
 

You have not written a crime novel where when you know who's the killer it's no use reading the book.
We all are Luftwaffe "buffs" on this board and giving here your conclusion will not deter anyone of us to buy your book.
At the end of the day, it's not your conclusion which is important to us, but rather your arguments, the data you collected and the different eye-witness' accounts.
Stop your teasing about your book!

Chris Ehrengardt

Re: John C. Dundas
 

it might be a sgt klein, he too was missing,on 28 11 40