Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Dear all,

Am not too familiar with "Armée de L'Air" marking system, but there seems to be several kind of machines with the same number (tactical NUMERO) painted on the fuselage side, hence my question.

Am looking for a possible match of a French twin-engined (may be a Potez-63 or a Bloch 174) machine that carries the Nº 178 (in white) on the fuselage.

It was shot down in mid 1940 (April-May-June) and crashed in Belgium or Northern France.

Those are the sole DATA I do have...nothing more, sadly (wish it carried out the local, date, time, and crew details).

Am aware of a MB-152 fighter that carried out the nº178 (the sole entry on the Search feature of this Board) that actually is more or less linked to my thread. However, this fighter returned back with its Commandant alive and was later scrapped...so, it may not be the machine I am looking for.

Is there a SITE or another place where we can find out more about the Armée de L'Air losses over Belgium or France in mid 1940?

Anyone would have DATA about a twin-engined machine (Armée de L'Air) lost with the numero 178 on the fuselage?

Adriano

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

OBS > Number 178 is on BLACK collor...not white as informed previously (bad memory, sorry!).

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Hardly a Bloch 174 for only approximately 50 were delivered to units. A twin-engined French AC with so high a number can only be a Potez 63.11 or a LeO 45. The highest number I found for a Pz 63-11 is 857 in Paul Martin's loss lists (book "Invisibles vainqueurs", publ. Yves Michelet 1991) even though less than 800 were produced but other versions (Pz 631 fighter, Pz 633 bomber, Pz 637 recce AC) received numbers in the same series, usually much lower numbers but it seems that there was some amount of mixture, a Pz631 being followed by a 63.11 in the series of numbers and conversely. It SEEMS THAT N° 178 can only be a Potez 63.11.

Perhaps Martin published more mumbers in the 2nd edition "Ils étaient là..." (They Were There…). Too bad my copy is "missing" for the moment.

PS: Internet sites Cocardes - Ciel de gloire
- there are certainly more. "Usual disclaimer"

You'll find a list of Internet sites (not only for 1940) here:

http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/ring/

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

MERCI Yves!

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

I agree it has to be a Potez 63 series of aircraft, but which one?

Only two developments reached the production level of 178

Potex 63-11 No 178 was lost/crashed with GR I/33 on 4 March 1940 when it returned from a recce mission, crew was unharmed.

Potez 631 No 178 belonging to ECN III/13 was shot down by German Flak 17 May 1940 on a ground attack mission. Crew KIA.

Since the wreck shown in the photo certainly does not look like anything you walk away from, I think it is the remains of the 631 mentioned above.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Both a 63.11 and a 631 having the same production number (178)? I doubt it and think there is an error somewhere (a typo or whatever).

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

You’re welcome Adrien Jardinier!

Here are a few Potez AC numbers. It really seems that 63.11 and 631 were intermingled in the production (this is what I believed to know and it is confirmed by the few relevant numbers I found in Martin’s lists).

Unfortunately in the lists there are only a few numbers for 631s. N° 146 (Pz 631) and 151 (63.11) are pretty close numbers (a total of about 1,200 AC of the Potez series 63… were made).

N°
173 : 63.11
177 : 63.11 CLOSE TO 178 isn’t it
180 : 63.11 " " " " " " " "
184 : 63.11

114 : Pz 631
146 : Pz 631
151 : Pz 63.11

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

STIG

You gave me a NORTH to follow....indeed, there are other 3 pictures alongside this one, and it seems the crew had no chance to save themselves (unless they jumped by parachute before the crash). The area is well wooded with huge trees and some of the wreck crashed on the border of this wood area.

The second option seems a good path....do you happen to have further source of informations so I can try to find books? What were the crew names of this ECN III/13 machine?

THANK YOU immensely

A.

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Just googled and found more : https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...C_ECN-3-13.htm

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Quoting from this page: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=16186.0

The five night fighter units were not a success. They began to fly night operations on 11 May, but there were no successful interceptions during the first week of operations. The French High Command then decided to try and use the aircraft in the increasingly desperate day battle. On 17 May twenty-four Potez 631s from the units based around Paris attempted to attack German columns around Formies. Eighteen aircraft reached the target area, and six were lost, probably all to German flak.

Fourmies do have a very well wooded area alongside, which matches the photographs...and now guess that THANKS to STIG, we got a match...and the crew name...

This is indeed POTEZ 631 (former number X-947) nº 178 from ECN III/13, shot down whilst on a ground mission (attack German motorized columns) near FOURMIES, on the morning of the 17th May 1940, killing the "Commandant" Lieutenant Eugène ROUYER and his gunner, Sous-Lt. Émile Chabert.

Thank you STIG and Yves for KIND support and information that lead to our finding out about this machine.

A.

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

No need to doubt that.

Each new sub-version of the Potez 63 family started all over again, from No 1
You have to remember that Potez was one of those companies in France using double identities. First they used a primary system which must have started way back with perhaps even the SEA models and by late 1930s they had reached appx 4900 or so. All models then combined this range with a secondary system starting as usual with 01 for prototypes and 1 with their production.

It would be interesting to see a c/n plate of Potez aircraft.

While it is true no single good book on the type exists (yet!) I hope LELA Presse one day will authorize such a book.

I also notice Adriano has found a site where you can see the production ranges for the type. Seems a good one!

I have no idea why so many French companies used this primary/secondary system from roughly 1919 or so. It has caused a lot of problems for historians through the years. Some companies (Caudron is a prime example) also changed their second number when/if the aircraft was modified to another sub-version while keeping the primary number intact, creating more or less a nightmare to follow, since in many cases only one of those ranges is known. Just awful if you ask me! :)

Adriano
Just one point with regard to the X-947 number you quote. That is no ex number, it is the so called Matricule Militaire (or Buzz number in English since that is what they were intended as) and was basically located in large letter/digits underneath the wings.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Armée de L'Air - twin engined aircraft nº178
 

Well, it seems that my knowledge of the Potez 63... AC was not quite comprehensive. Sorry. ( :o>)

In Danel and Cuny's superlative book "l'aviation de chasse française 1918-1940" (Docavia - Larivière) there is a very useful table on page 182. There we can find the whereabouts of all modern Armée de l'Air fighter aircraft as of May 10, 1940: in first-line units, undergoing repairs, destroyed or written off, used in test centres (32 AC) and fighter schools (241 in f. schools) etc.

The fighter types are: Morane 405-406 (405s, an experimental "présérie" of about a dozen, hardly played any part except perhaps in fighter schools and test centres), Curtiss H 75, Bloch 151, Bloch 152, Dewoitine 520, Caudron 714, even Koolhoven FK 58, Potez 630, Potez 631. 86 Potez 630s had been produced by May 10, and 208 Potez 631s. No obsolete types like D.500, 501, 510 or others are included.

A total of 2,219 fighters of these types had been delivered as of May 10 including 14 Koolhoven FK 58, but production of all types except MS 406 and CR 714 was raising by the day at last, which explains that the final production of D.520s was over 400 as compared to 57 on May 10. On this date 104 AC had been destroyed or written off and 114 had been exported to Turkey, Finland, Switzerland or transferred to the French naval aviation. The production of MS 406s was being phased out very fast; 7 were poduced in April, 10 in May and the last ones - only 4 - were produced in June.

All in all 2,511 modern single-engined fighters had been delivered to the AA from 1938 through June 1940 as well as 291 Potez 630-631 (of which 206 were 631s). This does not, it seems, include aircraft which were exported or transferred to the Aéronavale.

Lela Presse have been indeed planning a book on Potez 630-631s but when are we going to get it "in our greedy hands?". Only the gods know. Some 12 years ago (2008) they did publish a volume on all Potez aircraft but without a list of all production numbers like 178. In this book it was mentioned (at the top of the Pz 63-chapter) that work had been in progress for a few years on a comprehensive Potez 63-book, "certainly in two volumes". Sigh.