German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

The Dutch city of Vlissingen (Flushing) has some interesting pictures of aircraft which ended up in the area during WWI.

The 2nd, 4th, 10th, 40th and 45th pic in this selection all show a Fokker D.VII numbered '115'. According to Dutch sources this is Albatros-built 5584/18, landed at IJzendijke, 15 Oct 1918. Pilot, Uffz. Alfred Baum of 1. Seeflug Abteilung, Marine Jagd Stab IV.

Does anyone know if 115 is a unit code or a proper German Navy WWI serial? I know of a serial list which contains only seaplanes. On that list 115 is not a D.VII and by 1918 the numbers ran much higher.

By the way, the fourth picture reveals that the (Army) serial is 5288 (18), not 5584. The rudder also reads 'Fok D.7' and then something in brackets; not OAW, I think.

Thanks for any insights.

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hello Petrusja,


According to Jon Guttman in Naval Aces of World War I P.49 Fokker D.VII (Alb) D.5584/18 belonged to MFJ V (MFJ = Marinefeldjasta). The aircraft serial was D.5584/18 as you correctly notice.The Marine Feld Jasta aeroplanes usually operated with Idflieg serials as assigned to army aircraft as is the case here. Also Guttman has the pilot as Vzflgmstr Karl Engelfried.



I'm not sure about the significance of the nummber 115 on the rudder, but its not a naval serial. Naval landplane serial number LF.115 was a much earlier Albatros.


Thanks for the link to the interesting photos.


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Thanks Clint.


But on the rudder it says D.7 (...) 5288, so that would seem to be the correct Idflieg serial? (The 10th photo is sharp).


Peter

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Petrusja,


The D 7 refers to the type I assume. Apologies, as I missed that. The machine would indeed appear to be Fokker D.VII (Alb) D.5288/18. So not therefore D.5584/18. The work I referenced in my previous post has a Flgmt Baum being interned in Holland so if the name, Alfred Baum, in your first post is correct he belonged to MFJ V.


So the dutch sources you reference state the plane was D.5584/18. Do they also include photos of the machine ?


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Ah, yes, it does read (Alb) between the brackets, now I see. Thanks.

No, they only have one of the same photos. They say it was interned by the Dutch, and that the Dutch serial F-257 was probably allocated. Edit: F-227.

Can you teach me about Idflieg serials? They are not specific per aircraft type, but specific for the aircraft class such as 'D' for biplane fighter?

So if it reads Fok D.VII 1234/18 on the fuselage, the serial is really D.1234/18, and there could also be a C.1234/18 reconnaisssance aircraft?

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Petrusja,


Idflieg serials: There was a seperate number range for each category and within each category a new series for each year thus


D.1234/17 was a Siemens Schuckert D.1b
D.1234/18 was a LFG Roland D.VIa


C.1234/17 was a Albatros C.XII (OAW)
C.1234/18 was a Halberstadt CL.II


There was an incomplete list, that was not updated for sometime on the net. I'll see if I can find it on wayback and post the link if I can find it. Update it is available at : http://airplane.designation-systems.net/


Just a few words though it was a laudable attempt by Roger on the subject but further information has emerged since and many more serials are know known and there are also a few questionable entries. Still I believe it may serve as a good starting point.



Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Thanks!

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Indeed a very interesting aircraft/photos and also a very interesting site. Thanks for posting it. Pity they know so little about what they show.

There has been many articles written about aircraft interned/crashed in Holland during WW 1 such as Cross & Cockade (both the British and US version a la Over the Front) and Air Enthusiast, just to mention three.
In all of them the serial number is quoted as 5584/18.
All of them also states Flugm. Karl Engelfried landed at Ijzendijke 15.10.1918
The unit is interesting and new to me. The only reference I have says Seefront Staffel. Only one source mentions the odd '115' on the fin but then says it was 'F115' (no F visible to me...)
The very tiny serial number (Bestellnummer) on the rudder is indeed intriguing and to be honest, they look very odd. I don't believe any German would have written the type as D.7 for instance, only D.VII. I have never myself seen a serial number painted in this way. Asking my wife (who knows nothing about serial numbers and such things), her initial reaction was it looked more like graffiti than a serious attempt of numbering an aircraft. I have to agree. This cannot be a factory marking. Would the Germans themselves have done it? Does not sound very serious either, so the only alternative to me is that someone from Holland has done it after it came down. So for the time being I am still treating this aircraft as 5584/18 mostly due to former Dutch sources which must have been originally been taken from Dutch files. Which is correct and which is wrong? No idea really.
Unfortunately no serial number can be seen anywhere else....

Finally the aircraft did not become F257 (that number belonged to a batch of Schwerin built aircraft taken by Fokker to Holland after the Armistice) but F227.

Cheers
Stig
Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Stig,


I've just been looking through Albatros Publications various volumes of the Fokker D.VII Anthology. Interestingly Vol.2 has a couple of photos of D.7 (OAW)2010/18 on the inside front cover. Reading further P.25 shows that the arabic style numerals were used rather than the more familiar roman style on early machines and further also on various components of the aircraft.So possibly on the rudder also, although I believe the aircraft in Petrusja's link is the first time I've seen this.


So while accepting your reasoning that D5584/18 was flown by Engelfried and taken over by the dutch, I'm wondering if in fact the aircraft shown in Petrusja's link is another impounded machine and in fact D.5288/18. It would certainly be interesting to know the serial number of the Fokker D.VII flown by Baum of MFJ IV. the reference to Marine Jagd Stab IV. in Petrusja's post might lead one to believe that this is a MFJ IV machine.



Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

OhOh

Stick your neck out and it gets cut off straight away...:)

Very typically I never bought the Fokker D.VII Anthology books. The Dutch photo is of a Alb built aircraft while you refer to an OAW built one.
Are those photos you look at the same style, ie extremely small on the rudder and looks like they were painted with "the left hand"?

I am also quite positive there are no hidden/unknown force landings in the Dutch archives. This is one and the same aircraft, no doubt about it.
The question is which one, D5584/18 or D5288/18.
I am still suspicious about the D5288/18 painted on the rudder. It does not look OK to me even if we now can say a few aircraft did receive D.7 instead D.VII markings.

Just like you I am also quite intrigued about who this Alfred Baum guy was. There was quite a few D.VIIs escaping from perhaps Belgium(?) 13.11.1918, none listed with a pilot's name.

Petrusja
Can you verify your source and why they say Baum and not Engelfried?

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Stig,


I'm realise I'm definitely offering my neck to the guillotine too...


I agree that the hand writing on the rudder perhaps does look a little freehand after all.Whereas it looks more like a stencil on the component parts.



D.2010/18 is as you correctly point out an OAW built machine, whereas as my reference to the drawings on P.25 applies, I believe to all aircraft. Indeed I'm wondering if stencilling components with the serial number was widespread across the whole German aircraft industry.I recall seeing this applied to the struts of the Pfalz Dr.I for example and I believe I've seen other examples too. I'll have to check that out.


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hello Stig,


It doesn't exactly support the views in my previous post but it would appear that the Fokker Anthology does mean only early OAW built machines used the roman numerals for which also see:

wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3080&cat=1



Back to the drawing board!


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Thanks Clint

Some very nice photos of Fokker D.7 on that site.
I have to admit I have very little to contribute when it comes to details (such as part stenciling). Must have seen their existance but with no real interest in the construction (read technical matters) of aircraft, I most likely have bypassed them.

I have by now begun to think in terms of a replacement rudder. Could make sense you know.....:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hello Stig, nice to talk to you, I see your name all over since I browse old photos for AirHistory.

First, the supposed Dutch serial is indeed F.227, my bad.

This archive is a municipal archive and they have no clue about aircraft (which makes it possible to find undiscovered gems). There happened to live a good photographer in Vlissingen (Flushing), Mr. Dert, and it seems he was hired to photograph the aircraft that came down in the area.

I suspect the information with the photos comes from the Netherlands Instititute for Military History (NIMH) which has some of the Dert photos in their own database, but not all. The information about crews seems to be quite reliable in other cases.

One Baum was interned in Holland according to Clint, so he came from somewhere.

I'm by no means an expert on WWI aircraft as my question about Idflieg serials proves. If D.5288/18 was not a valid D.VII (Alb) serial we would have a different case, but it is. I thought that 5288 was maybe the construction number, but if that is not possible, then this is D.5288/18 in my opinion.

It's sure a sloppy way of painting a serial on, but still. Maybe temporary if the aircraft was in the process of being painted, for example? That the Dutch applied this there in the mud of IJzendijke seems wildly unlikely to me. I would bet that nobody in the salvaging party knew that this plane was a Fokker D.VII.

If D.5584/18 is certain to have ended up in Holland, I would agree with Clint that this is probably simply another case. Why couldn't there be one?

I'll try to contact a Dutch expert on the interned aircraft and see what he says.

Regards,

Peter

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Gentlemen, I just noticed that the 39th foto in the batch shows another close-up of the same aircraft. Have a very good look at the forward landing gear strut please.

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Peter

I doubt very much you will find any new force landings in Holland during WW 1. They were all very well documented by (most likely) Dutch Air Force staff. No it is one and the same aircraft labeled as D.5584 in Dutch files, but showing D.5288 on the rudder.

I am also pretty certain that to be able to dismantle aircraft and later make them airworthy for said Air Force, they needed experts.

Of course these experts were familiar with the aircraft models at the time. Especially so a type already in its lifetime at the front considered to be the best fighter around (or at least one of them) and on top "designed" by a Dutchman. So, yes, they knew perfectly well what a Fokker D.VII was.

You say that Clint introduce the name Baum into this context, but he does not! It is actually you who state the pictured aircraft was flown by this mysterious Baum guy. Check your post 1. From where did you get it?

Enhancing photo 39 was very interesting since all I can read is that the strut in question actually says D.VII (not D.7 as written on the rudder). As far as I am concerned it rather "proves" my point (if not the case) that the rudder is a replacement or the scribbles have been made after landing. Unfortunately I cannot read the actual serial number. It could be anything.

Being completely non-technical, I can only assume that parts made to the Fokker D.VII could be fitted to any Fokker D.VII at the time, ie they were interchangable. Having looked at (by now) some photos which shows parts to be either stencilled or painted with both type and serial number, I am not so sure anymore. Why go to so much trouble labeling parts if they anyway were interchangable? At least I need someone with a lot more insight into why this was so, and also how the D.VII production lines were made up.

I am not saying this aircraft is not D.5288, but since all official documents state D.5584 someone at that time either made a boo-boo or knew something we don't....:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hello Stig,


With regard to Baum, it is at least a possibility that another Flyable Fokker D.VII was interned in France I believe. Jon Guttman in Naval Aces of World War 1 Part 2 P.52 states the following "Flgmt Baum landed his damaged aeroplane in Holland and was interned"


So not so badly damaged that he was killed. Again nothing definite and it remains open until the serial number of his machine and its fate is known. Presumably whatever the state of the machine a record from the dutch authorities must exist?


BTW I'm searching the net at the moment and it looks like 115 was on the rudder when the aircraft landed according to this contemporary dutch source:


http://www.aerofile.info/wordpress/?page_id=1351


I believe this may be significant as the date 15 October is included , while Guttman P.49 says Engelfried and D.5584/18 were interned in Holland 15 September, although he must have been released fairly quickly if so as P.53 credits Engelfried as destroying a gasbag 26 October. Something seems not quite right here!




Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Indeed Clint

There were many other D.VIIs which landed in Holland.
I don't have any crew listed for any of them, hence my interest in Baum since I am positive he was not onboard the presently discussed one.

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Stig,


Apologies I amended my post after you posted. Not sure it adds any clarity. Perhaps, the opposite in fact.



Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Sorry, I deleted a post which was irrelevant - I also found the Aerofile page.

I think the landing gear strut says Fok. D VII (Alb) and then horizontally a number of which the second digit looks a lot like a 2.

Why paint that on a landing gear strut is a good question but they did it. Fokker and Albatross D.VIIs were completel yun-interchangeable by the way thanks to Fokker's artisan methods.

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Thanks Guys

I was not aware that Fokker built D.VIIs were not interchangeable with Albatros built ones, but presumably then Alb and OAW were?

Also checked the Aerofiles pages and they certainly say Baum was the pilot and incidentally says the aircraft was D.5584....

I have now checked my secondhand sources for the two pilots in question
The Jasta pilots: Only one Baum, a Ltn d R from Jasta 79b (not our guy)
The Jasta war chronology 15 Oct 1918: Flgmt Baum MFJ 5 interned in Holland
Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-20, part III, POW 15 Oct 1918: FlugzgMt Baum, pilot, MFJ V, Holland interned

None of the above sources have anyone named Karl Engelfried (since he is not in The Jasta pilots, and not under the dates 15 Oct 1918, I have assumed he is not listed anywhere else either, ie different date).

Two questions then pop up, who was Karl Engelfried and from where comes the first name Alfred? Alfred is not mentioned in the three sources above and not on Aerofiles either as far as I can see. Is there a slight chance the pilot actually was Karl Engelfried Baum (possibly also named Alfred)?

Also from where comes the unit details? All my sources says MFJ V or 5. So what was 1e Seeflug Abteilung Marine Jagd Stab IV? Aerofiles even manage to state both these units on their site....

I feel like I am at the end of the line here.
I will re-list the aircraft as either D.5584 or D.5288 and note the problems as initially noticed by Peter. However I am still very certain it is one and the same aircraft/incident....:)

Thanks Guys for a very rewarding topic. I have enjoyed this discussion tremendously.

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Thanks Stig.

I would suspect that Alfred's name and the supposed unit name come from the official Dutch dossier which NIMH (associated with the armed forces) would have access to.

I'll try to contact some Dutch people who might be able to help.

Off topic - Fokker could provide no proper drawings to Albatros so they copied the design, and pilots preferred the Albatros-built aircraft. I read somewhere that the OAW version was again not identical.

Peter

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hello Stig,


Engelfried was, as per my post 17 in this thread a real individual who also served with MFJ V and according to Guttman force landed D.55584/18 on 15 Sept 1918.



My take this is incident 1.


Baum force landed on 15 October according again to Guttman P.52. This I believe may be D.5288/18.Not certain of course.



This is incident 2.


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Clint/Peter

I just can't believe two D.VII landed on the same date and at the same place in Holland and on top the officials had no idea and classified "two" landings as one.

Neither can I believe no Dutch historian so far has managed to detect this anomaly.

It would be interested to know why Guttman believes so....

Yes please, Peter, check your end because that is where the solution is to be found,... I hope....

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Stig/Petrusja,


But my point is the two dates are a month apart. September and October.If Jon Guttman is correct Engelfried and D.5584/18 have no relation to October 15th at all. This is also exactly as stated in the Jasta War Chronolgy all information relates to September 15th.


Therefore the question I ask is have the dutch sources referenced by Petrusja and OTF and Air Enthusiast conflated two seperate incidents.Alternatively, of course the Jasta War chronology and subsequently Jon Guttmann have both got the dates for D.5584/18 incorrect.






I'm not familiar with the periodical writingd you reference Stig, but research is cumulative. Therefore are the most up to date of the various publications are perhaps, most likely to be correct.Also Stig would you be able to supply the names of the authors of the periodical articles you reference.







Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

I see your point Clint

However there is no recording from Dutch sources of any Fokker D.VII force landing in Holland on 15.9.1918
All sources I have list only one landing and that is on 15.10.1918

Since Karl Engelfried is listed in the War Chronology, why is he is strangely absent in the two other sources? No Engelfried in Jasta Pilots and no Engelfried interned in Holland on 15.9.1918. Makes me think that maybe the Chronology has an error and Guttman simply repeats it.

The articles I am quoting from are:
Dutch Military Aircraft 1910-1920 (Early purchase of aircraft and the first aircraft manufacturers in the Kingdom of the Netherlands by Johan G.H. Visser (Over the Front Vol 22 No 1 - Spring 2007)

Interned! A list of aeroplanes of all nationalities that were interned by the Dutch authorities after landing in Holland during 1914-1918 by Harry van Dorssen and Frits Gerdessen (Cross & Cockade Vol 16 No 1)

Unexpected windfalls (Accidentally or deliberately, more than 100 aircraft arrived in Dutch territory during the Great War) by Bart van der Klaauw (Air Enthusiast issu no 80 - April/May 1999)

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Hi Stig,


Looking at your sources and particularly the article titles I would have to agree that the 15 September information is wrong and there's also the later shooting down of a balloon by Engelfried on 26 October.


That leaves Baum in D.5584/18 on the 15 October by default.Correct?


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Anything seems possible by now Clint :)

I have now read so many small bits and pieces, that I have by now forgotten where I read this, but at least one source "sounded" like the interned pilot (crews) were sent packing home very quickly, while the Dutch very cleverly kept the aeroplanes....

So it is not entirely impossible that our guy (let's call him Karl Engelfried Alfred Baum :) ) was sent packing across the border and was back with his unit just a couple of days later.

I don't like this "two-names-one-aircraft" situation. Until that is resolved at least I feel very uneasy....

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Stig,


Interestingly (or not!) Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-20 by the same three authors of the Jasta War Chronology, Franks,Bailey and Duiven but published a year later, 1999 vs 1998 has no mention of Engelfried on 15 September. But still mentions Daum on 15 October. Had they spotted an error perhaps in the earlier publication?


Dare we say that this is now an Engelfried free thread?


Regards,


Clint

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

:)

It is undoubtedly an interesting situation we have Clint

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

A Dutch book by Frits Gerdessen (whom Stig already mentioned) and Nico Geldhof says the pilot of the 15 October aircraft was Unteroffizier Alfred Baum of the 1st Seeflug Abteilung, then assigned to Marine Feld Jasta IV at Coolkerke, Brugge (Bruges). A Dutch newspaper also said it came from Bruges.


Gerdessen is pretty thorough. I mailed him personally but he hasn't answered.


I'm not sure but that doesn't sound familiar to me, and it would compromise the Dutch neutrality to let them go, I think.

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Something on Engelfried is here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/engelfried.php


Not neccesarily reliable, of course, but note that its says he shot down a DH-9 near Walcheren, which is the Dutch peninsula around Flushing. It should be possible to find out more about that.

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Doh

Terrible mistakes all over....

The book "The Jasta Pilots" have a separate chapter with regard to the Marine Jasta Pilots. So looking in the right place, both Baum and Engelfried are mentioned.

Since Engelfried obviously was an ace, he is mentioned in the "ace" book "Over the lines" as making a force landing in Holland 15 Oct 1918 and since he scored again on the 26th he was obviously not interned by the Dutch.

The book is much more silent regarding Baum since he is only listed as being in the same unit as Engelfried, and interned in Holland 15 Oct 1918. Nothing else.

Since I still believe we only had one force landing in Holland 15 Oct I am still thinking these two persons have to be one and the same.

I just can't buy that the Dutch covered up one landing, because the only solution to such a problem would be that Engelfried landed in his Fokker 5584 and was allowed to take off and return while Baum in 5288 was interned and his Fokker kept. This then immediately clash with the official Dutch listing that it was D.5584 that became their F227.
To make sure things then fit, we have to ensure that Engelfried instead was in 5288 and Baum in 5584.

Things are much easier if Baum and Engelfried are one and the same guy...:D

Cheers
Stig

Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII
 

Busy with other things, but in online old Dutch newspapers there are a few more details about the aircraft that landed at IJzendijke on 15 October. For what it's worth:

'The pilot was a 25 year old Saxon. Aircraft came from Bruges and was numbered 2593 (!) In addition number 115 was on the tail.'

He is also described as an 'onderofficier', which really means NCO, but might refer to the German Unteroffizier rank.